"If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated (anah) her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives." Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NIV

There are so many things that disturb me about Mormonism in general, but the sickening views of women in Christianity and Mormonism are simply, disgusting.

I know the spin the religious put on this. That worn out song about women being simple property to be traded and held "in those days", and how it was security to her to NOW be property for life of the rapist....but shit, man, this is so screwed up on so many levels. Why women, half of the population, EVER accepted, and worse... continue to accept 2nd class status in life....I really do not get it?

As a woman who stood knee deep in the feminist movement, I often find myself still...STILL, assuming a "role" that is domestic, and not what I want to do.

I guess those old childhood mantras..."a woman's place____(fill in the blank)....tapes are still playing in my head.

Discuss.

wings Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not
> pledged to be married and rapes her and they are
> discovered, he shall pay the girl's father fifty
> shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he
> has violated (anah) her. He can never divorce her
> as long as he lives." Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NIV


It depends on the translation.

From the New American Bible (Catholic):
"If a man comes upon a maiden that is not betrothed, takes her and has relations with her" etc.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__P51.HTM

Rules that did not involve having the woman -for example- stoned to death? Oh, sorry! That happens in some 'modern day' Muslim states, doesn't it?

"My God, Lavinia! Imagine! People in the past had different ways of dealing with life than we do!"



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/29/2012 10:54AM by matt.

Is that what they would be saying--"things were different then."

Yep--I want to be married forever to my rapist.

It must be genetic or something--"mothering" or even "parenting"--my therapist and I have had a lot of talks about this in terms of over-indulged children and coming to their rescue (my son) too much of the time. You'd never think he was over-indulged, but I do rescue him and my therapist has talked about our parenting instincts are difficult to suppress.

But me--it seems I mother everybody--not just my own kids.

Even with all that--in terms of women's rights--I didn't like being married, I like working and earning my own money, having control over my own money, and being able to determine what I will and won't do in terms of what the men in my life want me to do. I can't live in a marriage without giving up my power.

God didn;t write the Bible, people did and it was a long time ago and a different society.Like Matt said, it is a step up from killing the victim. Another point, I know of no rape victim forced to marry her rapist.It might happen but it is hardly the norm.

http://gimmemo.com/11/2011/afghan-woman-forced-marry-her-rapist-and-risk-being-killed-or-serve-12-years-prison-her-chil

This is an Afgan woman, and as Matt mentioned that particular religion... we know the human rights violations in that religious culture. I came across the original post's biblical verse that started me thinking about the role the religious (nearly all, really) hold toward women. It was mentioned in a blog discussion this morning. The quote was Christian, and half my life I read that book as the word of a God I feared, along with the BOM.

Look, I realize I was raised by racist Mormon's who held women as lesser and subservient to men, even 12 year old boys. And, I was just 2 gen's past polygamy in my family. I think I am simply stunned at my own self taking on a role so naturally at times. The thought that I continue to fall into taking the role of "the cook", "the cleaning lady", "the one who does laundry", and feel guilty if I don't keep all things domestically blissful. Introspection, actually. Why?? This is my dilemma. It is not disparity of income, nor lack of ablility to hire help.

It isn't about anyone making me do this, but my own issues based on how and where I was raised, or programmed, I fear. I am not totally trying to tear down religions, though I am not religious and do not agree with much I see in those arena's. More, I ponder the equality I have been a seeker of for 35 years, and my own ability at walking right over it...far too much of the time.

Yeah, I've tried explaining this to my parents several times. They believe you can nitpick through the Bible, ignoring the parts that were obviously written "by men," and finding the good parts that Jesus wrote, about loving your neighbor.

I just say, Why would I want to eat a cookie that is made of 50% dog poop just to get the chocolate chips? There's WAY too much violence, bigotry, racism, sexism, and outright evil written into the Bible for me to glean the good parts from it.

Love thy neighbor as thyself? Yeah, pretty sure that's the only common thread in all religious/philosophical texts, so maybe it's not God-given, but man-figured-out.

Once that first four legged fish crawled out of the ocean and became man, there was still another billion years of evolution before we could become the enlightened (arguably) beings we are now.

So somewhere between the male homo sapiens jumping any female whenever he felt like it and where we are today, there had to be some steps in between---like the physically weaker sex becoming protected property. Human social evolution is a long progression and you can't judge it in hind sight.

Look what a relatively short time its been since we owned slaves legally in this country.

Reading those kinds of things in the Bible though really does make it a testament against itself. If it really were of God, he could have easily taken the lead and brought man to a more socially responsible place, instead of saddling his people with those destructive commandments that any greedy despot could have thought up.

Or maybe he just wanted to see things unfold naturally,like a science experiment, in which case, the Bible is only a badly pieced together history book and does not have his divine thumbprint on it.

In the end, there is a long history in this world of women being treated as 2nd class, and it is hard to not still feel it on some level. The erroneous things we have engrained in us when we are young will always be there in some trace amounts. Just remember that that is all they are.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/29/2012 01:20PM by blueorchid.

Fortunately, we have laws in this country that have severe consequences to trying out these old Biblical ideas.

I knew from the very young age of 13, in a discussion with our minister, long before I converted, that the Bible was not my history, not my heritage, and certainly not current, except in some universal teachings of love and compassion, etc found in most religions. I presumed that other people did also!

Women and men's roles will always be different. There will always be people who interpret them differently and make them work differently in their homes. I'm just happy to be an American and have a lot of latitude on my role as a female.

How do women put up with it and sometimes fight for these righst to be taken as being lesser than men?

Human nature to want power over something weak and no matter how we put it an untrained male can brake the neck of an untrained female without much effort so its all about violence in the end.

You'll also know that the women who fight for this kind of life are doing ok ish by it but want it for eveyrone else because if they didnt sit at the top rung for women the ones that choose to have rights might overtake them and have better lives than they do.

Everyone exept a select few fight for this lifestyle where women are treated like something lesser and less important though evidance both modern and ainchent left behind in a few artifacts seems to point to equalaty or women lead sosiaties being largely more peaceful.

...cling doggedly to that second-class status! They have a weird sort of pride in being subservient. They are SO full of spite and vitriol for women who refuse to do as they do and take the inferior role.

Spite and vitriol directed at those who don't bow to male authority is right!

Does this mean it is OK to rape her if she IS pledged to be married?

I suspect that while the passage suggests something quite ugly "religious" women, those within orthodoxy, wouldn't think much about it in relation to today's world as it is not a commandment but was part of laws for governing the then society.