Most apologists favor Mesoamerica for Book of Mormon lands. Another group of Mormons claim it happened in the region of the United States. This new article is interesting. It suggests the idea that the mounds in the U.S. and the Mesoamerican builders might have started 5,000 years ago in North America, then spread into Mesoamerica. This was before any Book of Mormon people were supposed to have arrived.

http://www.sciencemag.org/content/334/6063/1620.summary

"Five millennia ago, Native Americans here began to build high mounds of earth flanked by flat plazas that resemble Mesoamerica's classic architecture. A small band of archaeologists suspect that these ancient settlements laid the foundation not only for the North American mound-building tradition that eventually culminated in the great city of Cahokia (see main text) but perhaps also for Mesoamerican civilization."

The DNA evidence has been instrumental in pushing back the time of entry into the Americas. We can thank Mormons Ugo Perego and Scott Woodward at the Sorenson Molecular Genealogy Foundation for contributing to this research. Both of these guys know the Americas have been colonized for 15,000 years. Bet that makes for stimulating conversation in Sunday School when they are discussing Adam and Eve.

It is a fact that Native Americans had colonized most regions of North and South America by about 14,000 years ago. By 10,000 years ago they began domesticating many crops and had started to establish large settlements.

If Israelites had arrived in the Americas 2-3000 years ago they would have encountered large native populations anywhere they landed.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/23/2011 01:13AM by Simon in Oz.

Simon in Oz Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If Israelites had arrived in the Americas 2-3000
> years ago they would have encountered large native
> populations anywhere they landed.


Yet, somehow the BoM fails to mention any of these native populations, and we have been able to decipher Mayan script since the mid 80's and there is nothing there that mentions any Mormon civilizations, not even a mention. Hmmm. You see, it is all part of heavenly father's plan.

Therefore they were belligerents. (Read the Bible.)

There is no way that they wouldn't come into contact with the indigenous peoples.

I was in 7th grade when I took my Native American friend to a "Lamanite" production in the downtown arena. (I was a good widdle missionary.)

The crux of the whole show was: If you're an American Indian, "YOU ARE A LAMANITE!"

There is no way any apologist can explain this away.

My long term memory is a motherfvcker. (And I still can't find my wallet.) (No, I ain't askin'Jeebus.)

Thanks Simon. Besides the Sunday School class discussions about Adam and Eve, there is the temple endowment ceremony. Maybe they will change it some more.

You all just need to accept that the Book of Mormon is absolutely the most correct book on earth. I've just hidden all the evidence. I'm one sick motherf***er who loves to play terrible tricks on my kids. Too bad for you sh*theads in throwing away your salvation because you don't accept the mental gymnastics of the sycophant apologists. Well the truth is that I'm going through a mid-eternity crisis that's pretty typical for us middle aged gods. The worlds nigh unto Kolob are full of sickos like me.

The problem all you folks who use the "gotcha" thing with DNA to disprove the theology of the Book of Mormon is fatally flawed because:

The Book of Mormon never claims that ALL the pre-Columbian inhabitants of America were descendents of Jared, or Mulek, or the Lehi colony. The Book of Mormon does claim to be the history of those people mentioned specifically--but it never claims that those people were the ONLY inhabitants of the land.

Also, do a little more research on the various methods and types of DNA classification. There are sex-related issues with various types of DNA classification which validate some methods of tracking ethnic origins--but invalidate others. DNA is not an exact science. Also, you might want to look into predominant blood types in various global and continental regions and see how they square with human ethnic distribution. Some blood type distributions call into question the "all Asian" theories of pre-columbian American ethnic origin. Just a suggestion or two--before you get all puffed up with your superior intellect and attitude...! Also be aware that DNA gets diluted by racial intermingling over periods of many centuries and/or millenia--and thus becomes ever more questionable over time.

"do a little more research..."

you have no idea who you replied to, do you?

haha - i love it!


hint: Simon in Oz knows a thing or two about genetics...

Harlan Carpenter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The problem all you folks who use the "gotcha"
> thing with DNA to disprove the theology of the
> Book of Mormon is fatally flawed because:
>
> The Book of Mormon never claims that ALL the
> pre-Columbian inhabitants of America were
> descendents of Jared, or Mulek, or the Lehi
> colony.

Let's see:

Joe's History 1: 34 "He said there was a book deposited, written upon gold plates, giving an account of the former inhabitants of this *continent*, and the source from whence they sprang. "

Then consider in the BOM:
That the Jaredites arose out of a people who were scattered from the tower of babel (Ether 1) after the flood, which LDS doctrine holds as a true event (Alma 10:22, Moses 7:43-51)
Next, that the Jaredites inherited the Americas solely, meaning that there was no one else here (led to a land "where never had man been" (Ether 2:5).) Which was empty after the flood "waters had receded from off the face of this land it became a choice land above all other lands, a chosen land of the Lord; wherefore the Lord would have that all men should serve him who dwell upon the face thereof" (Ether 13:2)

They lived and died, to the last man, Coriantumr (Ether 15, Omni 1:21)

Lehi believed they were alone in the Americas, "it is wisdom that this land should be kept as yet from the knowledge of other nations" (2 Ne. 1:8)

There are many verses in the BoM with similar prophecies/teachings about America being saved from the wicked/gentiles (1 Ne 13, 2 Ne 3:2, 2 Ne 10:10-12, 3 Ne 20:14...)

Lehi and descendants believed because of their "inheritance covenant" that no others except the chosen would be led to the land, "for behold, many nations would overrun the land, that there would be no place for an inheritance." (2 Ne: 1:8), that America will be saved and "none come into this land save they shall be brought by the hand of the Lord" (2 Ne 1:6 -- see v. 5-9).

An example of others being brought to the promised land by the hand of the Lard was in 1 Ne 13-15, where perceptibly, Smith alludes to Colombus being inspired to discover the new world and bring the bible to the heathens. It wasn't to a local, small geography Columbus discovered... It was meant to be a hemispheric geography...

It's interesting that pagan, human-sacrificing inhabitants could reside on the chosen land, and still be here long after the supposed short period of Israelites (or chosen/led Jaredites) were wiped off for lesser wickedness. How's that covenant going Jesus? Not so good? Blame the pre-adamite sub humans.

So all in all, these scriptures describing the so-called chosen inhabitants of a "continent" (not some local, small, vanishing geography) are clear, direct and plain.

The meaning of these were made obscure a half century ago when it was strongly evident by archaeology there were migrations across the Beringa much much earlier than Adam and Eve.

So the apologists spent the next several decade combing the BoM to find indirect, obscure references to the potential that there were others.

I could totally smash their claims, but I would bore everyone here. Requests?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/02/2012 10:47AM by Jesus Smith.

Harlan Carpenter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Also, do a little more research on the various
> methods and types of DNA classification. There are
> sex-related issues with various types of DNA
> classification which validate some methods of
> tracking ethnic origins--but invalidate others.
> DNA is not an exact science.

Point us to the papers/ref, please.

> Also, you might want
> to look into predominant blood types in various
> global and continental regions and see how they
> square with human ethnic distribution.

Point us to the papers/ref, please.

> Some blood
> type distributions call into question the "all
> Asian" theories of pre-columbian American ethnic
> origin.

Point us to the papers/ref, please.

> Just a suggestion or two--before you get
> all puffed up with your superior intellect and
> attitude...! Also be aware that DNA gets diluted
> by racial intermingling over periods of many
> centuries and/or millenia--and thus becomes ever
> more questionable over time.

Dilution is a lame argument for founder events (such as a completely different Y-DNA or mtDNA Haplogroup) entering into another population. The BoM alleges they lived and flourished (multiplied exceedingly, filled the land, etc) over a 1000 years.

Even mormon geneticists have shown evidence that dilution is a weak (pun intended) argument.

In his haplotypic study, Ugo Perego (Mormon Scientist Extraordinaire) says that there is a
"novel X2 branch...named X2g, and its presence in Native Americans most probably indicates an additional and very rare Native American founder..."

( See http://www.genetree.com/documents/achilli_perego_distinctive_perego_et_al_paleo_indian_migrations_2009_current_biology.pdf If the linked doesn't work, just ask and I will email the full paper PDF to you.)

The haplogroup X2g, as I understand, is theorized to have entered the lineage through this rare individual founder much more than 10,000 years ago.

As for DNA matching hebrew lineage, the FAIR Mormon apologists have argued blue-faced that until we find Lehi's DNA to match against, it's pointless to worry. Of course, many have pointed out that Mulek would have discernible, royalty Davidic descent (as his father Zedekiah is a direct descendant of Josiah and hence David). And we're told that dilution is the problem there. (The lost African Jewish Lemba DNA, we're told, is not a good example because it is based on the Cohen modality, and Levites are persnickety about preserving family lines. Like Mulek's royal family wasn't?)

Okay, if 10+kya X2g can be found today, I'm sure there's a detectable haplotype from the Davidic line that can be seen from entry into a population 2,600 ya.

In fact, in the book, Genetic Diversity Among Jews by Batsheva Bonn-Temir and Avinoam Adam, Oxford University Press, 1992, chapter 4 is titled Types of Mitochondrial DNA among Jews.

Studies found that mtDNA variability from Jewish women was smaller than among other population (including Caucasian, Asian, Australian,African). Interestingly, they found that Native Amerindians have lower mtDNA heterogeneity values / variability. A lot of work in Jewish mtDNA focuses on Ashkenazic Jews, which have 14 different mtDNA types.

(See also,

The Matrilineal Ancestry of Ashkenazi Jewry: Portrait of a Recent Founder Event
http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/43026_Doron.pdf

MtDNA evidence for a genetic bottleneck in the early history of the Ashkenazi Jewish population
http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/Behar%202004%20mtDNA.pdf )

For paternal matching (think of recent advances in admixture studies) see:
http://www.familytreedna.com/group-join.aspx?group=Davidic
where they've identified Y-DNA12, Y-DNA37, or Y-DNA67 markers as royalty, going all the way back to David. How fortunate for the Mulek searchers!

If there's not enough here to go on for finding traces of Mulek's lineage among Amerindians, when they can find a single introduction of X2g by a rare founder 10+kya, then the FAIRies better just keep their excuses to themselves.

Finding Mulek should be easier than anything. But he's no where to be found!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/02/2012 10:40AM by Jesus Smith.

Back to the chat rooms for Harlan the Carpenter's son..

I know both Jesus and Simon well, and if they start speaking authoritatively about DNA, well I shut my little English teacher mouth and start taking notes...

But you can take if from me, Harlan was only parroting some silly apologists' talking points...

Cabbie, I appreciate the vote of confidence, but we both know Simon is in a league of his own.

Also, don't short yourself on DNA understanding when it comes to Amerindians.

Do you know what mitochondrial DNA is? After you have proven your understanding with an explanation, I would like a description of the "issues" of mDNA tracking rather than a vague reference that they exist. Then I would like a discussion of the problematic blood types. If you are referring to haplogroup X, here is some research that discusses the theory that even haplogroup X originated from Asia:

http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/Fagundes-et-al.pdf

The mtDNA studies are pretty rock solid. This particular DNA is not in the nucleus, is passed directly from the mother to offspring, intact. Genetic mutations occur in the DNA over time and has been measured. Studying the mutations and the rate of their occurance gives a pretty good idea of time frames involved in population migrations. Put with dating of archeological finds the two support each other pretty well. People came to N/S America 12-30 thousand years ago from Asia (Berengia). No "J" or "N" halotypes have been found in indiginous people (no near Eastern connection).

Look, I am not trying to be mean. You are where most of us were at one time. We see nothing in you that is different from us at one time.

Loosing a belief in Mormonism is not the end of the world, nor has it been the end of my belief in "god" and the beautiful purpose(s) each of us have for our live(s) here on Earth.

Peace.

Don't forget about the Jaredites. Supposedly a population of well over 2 million.

And these 2 million people didn't run into to indigenous people?

Also there is the little problem that the Tower of Babel can't possibly be literally true - the languages of the earth didn't diverge that recenlty. However, the Book of Mormon relies on the Tower of Babel to be true in order for the Jaredite history to be true. Oops.

Also, it is very very clear that Joseph Smith and the other early prophets very definitely thought that the Lamanites were the ancestors of the north american Indians. There are so many quotes from so many prophets and general authorities about everyone in America and Polynesia being descendents of the Lamanites that it is mind bogling.

But keep on twisting things to somehow fit into your dogma and you will always find a way no matter how far you have to twist.

would have brought over the same diseases the Spaniards did and would have wiped out the native population.

"Look, Lehi--there's millions of people here already!"

"Well, let's see, there's about 40 of us...let's introduce them to judaism--I'll bet we can convert them ALL in no time flat!"

"Five millennia ago, Native Americans here [Louisiana] began to build high mounds of earth flanked by flat plazas that resemble Mesoamerica's classic architecture." http://www.sciencemag.org/content/334/6063/1620.summary

It seems that pictures found at official LDS websites are promoting pseudohistory.

Mormon.org is for the public to learn more about Mormons. Scroll down to "The Book of Mormon Testifies of Christ" to see the picture resembling Mesoamerican structures.
http://mormon.org/book-of-mormon?gclid=CMfjuPOMmK0CFUHRKgodI025mQ

The gospel art kit is for LDS families to teach their children.
http://lds.org/hf/art/print/picture/0,16989,4218-1-3-103,00.html

How much longer can the LDS church continue to use pictures of Mesoamerican themes for the Book of Mormon if the architecture had its beginnings 5,000 years ago?

Saw this yesterday.
http://www.examiner.com/architecture-design-in-national/massive-1-100-year-old-maya-site-discovered-georgia-s-mountains
How long before my ward suggests a field trip?

I saw that one too. I'm skeptical but will watch for more about it in professional journals.

This article is about the Georgia archaeological site, from the publication "Early Georgia", Volume 38, number 1, Spring 2010
http://www.stratumunlimited.com/uploads/4/8/1/5/4815662/track_rock_paper.pdf

The Society of Georgia Archaeology website
http://thesga.org/about-the-sga/



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/23/2011 07:55AM by Hoggle.

A very interesting article, followed by some archeological (and 'ist) squabbling in the readers comments.


And someone had the nerve to classify the Book of Mormon as Hocus Pocus - an exalted state it falls completely short of.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/23/2011 03:16PM by 3X.

The site in Georgia is NOT Mayan. It's a well known site that has been studied. The guy proposing it as Mayan is, in my opinion, a loon.

I too am curious but sckeptical. It is only about 2 hours from my house so we may do a field trip some time.
There is a guy in my ward who cherry-picks any report he can to "prvoe" the BoM. Even if this is legit. It shows a Mayan civilization and not a Nephite culture. But I'm sure that point will be lost on TBMs.

The science article caught my interest because the similarity to Mayan could be attributed to the origins in North America dating back 5,000 years. It will be something to watch for in publications.

This paragraph from the news article is an example of what caused me to be skeptical. It makes it sound like the Mayan became a lost civilization that disappeared but now is found in Georgia.

"Historians, architects and archaeologists have speculated for 170 years what happened to the Maya people. Within a few decades, the population of the region declined by about 15 million. Archaeologists could not find any region of Mexico or Central America that evidenced a significant immigration of Mayas during this period, except in Tamaulipas, which is a Mexican state that borders Texas on the Gulf of Mexico. However, Maya influence there, seemed to be limited to a few coastal trading centers. Where did the Maya refugees go? By the early 21st century, archaeologists had concluded that they didn’t go anywhere. They had died en masse."

It didn't happen like that. It took the Spanish 170 years to gain control of the Mayan lands.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_civilization

"many Maya cities reached their highest state of development during the Classic period (c. 250 to 900 AD), and continued throughout the Post-Classic period until the arrival of the Spanish."

"The Maya peoples never disappeared, neither at the time of the Classic period decline nor with the arrival of the Spanish conquistadores and the subsequent Spanish colonization of the Americas. Today, the Maya and their descendants form sizable populations throughout the Maya area and maintain a distinctive set of traditions and beliefs that are the result of the merger of pre-Columbian and post-Conquest ideas and cultures."



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/23/2011 08:20AM by Hoggle.

it raises two of my beefs with common cultural knowledge in the US:

1. So many Americans don't even know that the Native American Mounds exist.

2. Most of those who do don't think about them in terms of mezo American structures, because, hey, we're Americans and those other people are Latinos. How could they be connected?

or a rocket scientist, or an archeologist, or an anthropologist to read the book of mormon and determine that its all hogwash.
With all the anachronisms, simplistic characters, improbable storylines, direct quotes from the King James bible, headless men taking their last breath, journalists from the 4th century AD living on the american continent who somehow know about the existence of the Revelations of John by name, and freely quote Paul verbatim, it should be pretty easy to figure out that the Book of Mormon was written by someone with a fertile imagination and who had a working knowledge of the English bible as it existed in the 19th century.

Ten years ago if you would have gone to any temple visitors center, especially SLC, you would have seen a heavy emphasis on the Mesoamerican/lamanite theme.

Huge dioramas or murals of Inca/Mayan themed cultures with the visit of Christ prominently portrayed, and you would have seen the movie "Ancient America Speaks" or especially the movie "The Testaments of One Fold and One Shepherd" depicting the fictional Mayan family of Helam.

See here for a picture of the movie set: http://www.ldschurchnews.com/articles/41539/Testaments-debuts-in-Hawaii.html

Where is all this stuff now?? GONE from mention, GONE from the visitor's centers, GONE from missionary lessons, GONE from sunday school imagery and illustration.

Isn't this behavior suspect enough to know that something is really not right deep in the bowels of 50 E N Temple? Why would the church just quietly slink away on claims they were willing to bet the PR farm on just a few years ago?? Could it be the mountains of irrefutable evidence cited above?

Cmon prophets seers and revelators, STEP UP and bear your GD testimonies if you have the convictions you claim.

You don't have to understand every nuance of the science to see that mormon leadership understands it enough to be RUNNING AWAY from it as fast as it can!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/02/2012 10:19PM by rodolfo.

Thanks Rodolfo, I never heard of this film before. Maybe I should buy it for my TBM kids and grandkids? ;)

Hmmm maybe TSCC discontinued showing this flick because it begs the question---where was Zarahemla in the Americas? Inquiring tourists and investigators want to know...

After reading Guns, Germs and Steel, I decided that not only is there no evidence for the Nephites, it's impossible for Nephite civilization to have ever existed.