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Posted by: rowan ( )
Date: February 07, 2012 08:31AM

The topic's title says it all.

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Posted by: JoD3:360 ( )
Date: February 07, 2012 08:48AM


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Posted by: yours_truly ( )
Date: February 07, 2012 08:58AM

I absolutely don't agree with the statement, of course, and hope it was not seriously meant - if not, maybe you could provide some examples of mormons in particular seem inclined to be bearers of (or seem to bearer of) such an attitude.

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Posted by: yours_truly ( )
Date: February 07, 2012 09:40AM

You don't learn empathy in mormonism - relative to it being a social network and having family values, that may be surprising for outsiders.

But I don't think mormonism fosters real personal 'agency' either - it is to strict and conformative in mindsets.

To feel good with yourself, has nothing to do with either empathy nor with having real freedom to do what you want with yourself. For instance people within the narcissistic spectrum (and also those in desperate need of relatively strong authoritarian leadership) in general may feel good with themselves, in particular when the social interaction with others are assured (as within a cult, as long as appearances -it's all about that- hold), and they're not in too high degree being left alone because of (relative) personal selfishness and insensitivity. Authority over others (including in the family life) also mix fairly well in the narcissistic mindset; it's getting stronger.

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Posted by: CL2 ( )
Date: February 07, 2012 12:45PM

since I'm an exmo, my son is very exmo, my ex is gay and is definitely exmo, and my daughter is TBM.

Just an example--Christmas day a few years ago. My son got a movie that was R rated. My daughter was pissed that he wanted to watch it--after all, she no longer watches R-rated movies (though when anti-mormon, she is the one who brought home Midnight Cowboy and The Graduate--and used to censor the movies I could see that she had seen.) So--he went downstairs and spent the day downstairs so she wouldn't be disturbed by his evil ways.

Little things like this happen everyday. Thank dog she doesn't tell me not to cuss--she used to get upset when people she worked with would ask her not to.

Also--she talks endlessly about the LDS church and I just listen. If I say something to counter what she says, then we end up arguing and it just isn't worth it, but her talking about church continues on a regular basis. She even asked me to allow someone to VT me again just Sunday (she said but not to try to get me back to the church--then why?)--I'm resigned, by the way.

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Posted by: Helen ( )
Date: February 07, 2012 01:23PM

my first thought was, that doesn't make sense. Then I though hey, maybe it does to a Mormon. I remember a conversation a TBM friend and I had about free agency.

I had TBM friends and when we would talk about the church, wait a minute, that's all we ever talked about....THE Church.

Anywhoo one day one of my friends and I were talking about free agency and she really believed that having Mormon free agency far surpassed non-Mormon free agency.

WHAT!?!?

I said that I was beginning to believe that perhaps free agency in the Church isn't really free agency. I said that it's only free if you choose the Church way.

My friend said well you can choose the wrong way but if you do then you are not following the Gospel teachings and some such nonsense. Mormon free agency lets us choose right from wrong. Non-mormons don't have the gift of free agency in the same way for they don't have the Gift of the Holy Ghost, the gift of discernment.

I then used the example of Judas and Peter and said well if prophecy said that Judas would betray Christ and Peter would deny him then what was free about that since that was supposedly part of the plan.

That made her crazy and then she said, "Well Heavenly Father knew them so well that he knew they would betray and deny Christ. I said but to fulfill prophecy they had to choose denial and betrayal of Christ. How could that be free agency? "NO" she said, "They had a choice." So I said what if Judas and Peter hadn't done that would that mean God would have said okay don't need that prophecy fulfilled or would he find someone else to do it if it is all about fulfilling prophecy?

I realized this conversation was going nowhere and best we "drop it".

Makes my head spin just remembering it.

Mormon Free Agency is bondage - to the Church.

Just my MOO

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Posted by: peglet ( )
Date: February 07, 2012 01:44PM

I am so confused about what your TBM said. I now have the quote from Billy Madison in my head:

"Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul. "

You should have just said just said that to her. :)

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Posted by: Helen ( )
Date: February 07, 2012 01:54PM


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Posted by: peglet ( )
Date: February 07, 2012 02:03PM


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Posted by: peglet ( )
Date: February 07, 2012 01:49PM

Also, they have the right to believe whatever they want to believe in (Article of Faith blah blah blah), but this doesn't seem to apply to non & ex Mormons. Their thinking is "I have a right to believe in whatever I want.. but you have to believe in what I believe because nothing else is the right, one true church".

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Posted by: rowan ( )
Date: February 07, 2012 02:24PM

to- peglet

Thank you. You understood the statement and the idea behind it!

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Posted by: JoD3:360 ( )
Date: February 07, 2012 02:36PM

This is the thinking when I was EQPrez, also. We went to peoples homes who did not want us, we went to one couples place of business, we even bothered peoples neighbors trying to find out where the DoNotContacts had moved. They were missing out on blessings, and we would lose our blessings if we did not seek out and recover the Lords children...whether they liked it or not.

Bishops constantly remind their flock that people do want to be visited, despite their words. They want what we (think we) have but just nee the contact...the BoM says that nobody knows at what point a person may be ready...

People who have the Lord on their side and who have His seal of approval can and do walk all over those who they are called upon to save. Every religion does it to lesser or greater degree, even to the point of war, inquisitions, and member missionaries.

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Posted by: forestpal ( )
Date: February 07, 2012 02:42PM

You are so right, rowan.

Have you noticed that the Mormons have now changed that to "agency" in all their recent talks, lesson manuals, and other writings?

Well, it is more realistic and accurate: Mormons have "agency."

Those outside the cult who live in democratic societies have free agency.

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