I read the original thread earlier but didn't have time to reply ( http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,414700,414700#REPLY ), and now it's closed.

I'd think that having a Mormon version of a Debbie Cook -style insider whistle blower might do it ( http://www.tampabay.com/news/scientology/ex-clearwater-scientology-officer-debbie-cook-testifies-she-was-put-in-the/1214690 ). Maybe one of the GA's will grow a conscience and a sense of reality and come clean in public. I know the price would be high in terms of family/social support relations, but at least you guys didn't have to sign a billion year contract to get high church callings, ay?

That's the creepiest thing I've read in a long time if it's true.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/11/2012 11:23PM by suckafoo.

IMO, the Strongest thing is for mormons to see the disconnect between what is Claimed, and what ChurchCo Does.

Never Mind JS, BY, or even GBH/TSM.

the difference between What they SAY & what they DO is a Giant Cavity in the COB.

The have to grow a man-sack. Buncha sniveling cowards.

The Morg will never "fill the whole world" and be the dominate reglion anymore than the Cat-licks will.

But as long as there is money in the bank, these old white geezers will kiss each other's ass and dream about what could have been, if only the womenz and blahs had been properly submissive...

Holy Cow! I just read the article, and it reconfirms the saying "Scientology: making the LDS look relatively good by comparison since 1953."

You summed it up right here, and made me laugh. Thanks.

This is what it would take:

President Monson: "We have spent many hours in the Upper Room of the Temple supplicating the Lord for divine guidance. He has heard our prayers, and by revelation has confirmed that Joseph Smith was a complete fraud. He lied about the whole thing and we have irrefutable proof that our beliefs are based entirely on fiction. I therefore command that all worthy and not-so-worthy members have their names removed from our membership roles immediately. You should all join other churches, become agnostic, atheists...whatever floats your boat. I will be retiring to my condo in Florida. Well folks, it's been a helluva ride, hasn't it? Hey, have one on me! Over and out".

T.M.

Tooo funny!...thanks for brightening my morning on this snowy day in Lethbridge....

I think two would be better than one. I think Jeffry R. Holland (who seems on the verge of cracking) and some other relatively decent GA need to come out on a major TV show like to Barbara Walters or something. Because if it's just one, the most rabid TBMs would put it down as Satanic Possession or Alzheimer's/Dementia sort of thing. And they'd have to come out of the closet with irrefutable evidence ... not something that can be pooh-poohed by the TBM's.

Yup, the more the better! Most of the Mormons I've met seem such decent people I'd be surprised that at least some of the GA's are struggling with having to live with themselves knowing that they are compromising their personal integrity in toeing the church's line.

"Personal integrity"? I just looked that up in the Mormon dictionary and it's not there. But you would think that some of the GAs must know in their hearts that the whole thing's a fraud. These guys are reasonably intelligent and some of them probably know how to use the internet. Are they all going to stay hypnotized their whole lives? And CA girl -- nice try. There's no such thing as irrefutable evidence to a Mormon. The TBMs have already pooh-poohed the B of M DNA proof, the Lost Book of Abraham papyrus proof, the Kinderhook plates fraud proof,
Joseph Smith's arrest records proof.....what else ya got?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/13/2012 04:49PM by canadianfriend.

But irrefutable in the face of the "will-not-listen" Mormons? You are right. They can justify incredible things.

They know they can be trusted NOT to do that.
Yeah the business people who have been running TSCC are smart enough not to do anything really stupid, unlike the Scientologist leadership. Everything seems to be carefully calculated to keep the machine running -- they make small mistakes, like the handling of the salamander letters, but there are enough brainwashed now to always spin the story back their way.

that the two foundational prophets of the church were polyamorous scoundrels who married and bedded the wives of living husbands.

No f-ing way a god would "restore" his church with these f-ers.

I am sure there are some GAs who have doubts, but I think all of them believe on some level, and make personal excuses as to why they don't get the cool visions that JS and BY had. As for the ones who do have doubts, remember they have been taught their whole life if an apostle falls, he gets outer darkness for all eternity. Not Terrestrial or Telestrial Kingdom, but outer darkness. Many of them probably harbor enough doubts going in both directions that they don't want to risk that.

They probably convince themselves that even if the church is wrong, they are still doing a good thing. Of course that would be their pride blinding them to the reality.

Truth is, I have met a lot of bad guys in my life, but I have met very few who set out to fill that role. It's just something they fell into because of their personal beliefs and how they choose to deal with their circumstances.

Forbiddencokedrinker, you are correct. The thought of eternal outer darkness is scary. But that's what Joseph Smith's Mormonism is all about -- controlling people through fear. That's why Mormons do all the things they do (including obeying the commandment to give money to the church) They live their lives in bondage due to irrational fear. Isn't Mormonism wonderful?

No matter what happens, the church is going to have to make some painful decisions.

1) The practice of global correlation and dumbing down the doctrine has been a failure. Members are not challenged or engaged intellectually by deeper doctrines. There is a lot of rote repetition, and members are looking elsewhere for spiritual and intellectual fulfillment.

2) The missionary program in developed nations is a failure. They should immediate pull all missionaires out of western Europe and Japan and redeploy them to Africa and Latin America.

3) The church is losing the youth, especially young women. The youth are not comfortable with the church's anti-gay, anti-women positions. There is a big disparity between the growing influence and economic power of women outside the church versus those inside the church. There are no role models inside the church representing the needs and desires of young single adult women.

4) The approach of "not everything that is true is useful" in regards to church history has been a failure. The church can not hide or deny or spin its history. It's attempts to do so have had the ironic effect of driving more people away from the church because members who discover the truth feel like they've been lied to. Denying it has only served to underscore it's importance.

Even if they fail to address the above, there is enough heft and mass behind the LDS movement to last several more generations. Besides, they could have billion squirred away in banks around the world and zero debt. No one really knows.

One possible scenario that has happened before both in the church and in other organizations that come under stress is profound disagreement among the senior leaders over a basic question of direction. Both sides have equal seniority and are equally convinced of their righteousness.

As it becomes clear that growth has stopped and the church is stagnating spiritually as well as financially, all it might take is a trigger event that draws a line between two points of view that cannot be reconciled. One GA says the church as to do Plan X or die, and another GA says the only choice is Plan Y. First the COB starts to line up behind one or the other, and then it starts to spill out into the membership. Both sides are passionate about the issue and are convinced that the only hope is their particular plan.

Nauvoo all over again, but this time with no Brigham Young and with a membership that is a little better informed. The fact that a financial empire is at stake would only fan the flames and attract big legal guns.

Thanks for all the thoughtful answers! They got me thinking; if a GA is struggling with doubts and wants to come out but feels like he can't because he doesn't want to disgrace his family and living situation and whatever nasty other consequences of being such a high profile apostate, how do you think he could renounce the church with the least amount of damage to himself and family? (of course, going away quietly is probably preferable, but that wouldn't really help anyone else who's stuck in this ...er... religion).

Personally I think a person ought to have enough sense of dignity to at least not lend support to any organization that he knows is a fraud (and being a high ranking official like a GA lends supports in my book), but I'm not the one that will pay the price. Martyrdom can't be demanded of others.

Nothing will make it melt down...

The problem as I see it is, that the members WANT to believe.

The information debunking mormonism is readily available, but most members would rather look at porn than find out about their religion.

That is certainly true with many members, but evidently not all. It seems a lot of ex-mo's hanging out here were able to be convinced of the church's falsehood when presented with unbiased evidence. I think a lot of members remain stuck there because they are afraid to even look at the evidence in the first place (the church seems effective at drumming into people to not even give truth a chance... but many ex-mos didn't let their need/want to believe get in the way of going where the evidence led them once they looked).

Perhaps a high place defection or two can convince many to finally check things out...

I maintain that critical mass is three houses per block. Three exmo families on the block can create their own sustainable and much more livable community.

the remainers take note of what the exmp's have achieved, and then there goes the neighborhood.

it's much easier to step onto a rescuing ship than to jump off the sinking ship you're on and into the drink.

True, perhaps things are not as hopeless as I think.

Part of me hopes that the morg comes down hard on the Washington SSM law that was passed today. That sort of bigotry from the top will help wake up some of the more liberal folks I know.

If Tommy is discovered to have been boning his 17-year-old serving girl that might do the church in. Wait, that already happened in Kirtland and it's still going strong.

One thing can create a complete church meltdown

Its called 'google'