Of members of the church I have know very personally who were mormons two have completed suicides, three come readily to mind have thought about significatnly or tried to commit suicide. There are a couple more that are probably suicides but it could not be proven. Is this unusual? Does the church have this kind of a problem and little plublicity on it?

I've known two who completed. One was a high school friend. The other was an adult I didn't know well. Both had struggles with mormonism. I don't know the details.One may have been gay.
I know a 3rd attempted when in her teens. She was being sexually assaulted by her brother.

Suicide is tragically more common then people think, but I have heard that there is strong reason to believe that it is more common among Mormons. For one reason, Utah leads the nation in suicides.

There could be many reasons for this. For one, Mormons are taught that their genetic biological impulses are artificial creations of their free will, so they tend to feel really guilty about things they can not control, like their sexual orientation, a healthy sex drive that makes them masturbate, or have "unclean" thoughts about others, or their inability to find a spouse.

Furthermore, you have to consider what kinds of people are attracted to fringe religions. Normally, as a whole, they are people who don't fit into society and are looking for a place where they could fit in. A large number of these people, while perfectly good human being, may be societal outcast due to various personality ticks that they inherited. They then pass these ticks onto their children until a large part of the church has such ticks. Further complicating matters, is the more rational members of the church will gradually leave, taking their genetic breeding stock with them, as they discover the truth. This leaves a large mess of people, who might suffer from things like depression, anxiety orders, bipolarism or Aspergers (all traits that I have noticed are unusually highly represented among the Mos) Sadly, these are the people in society most likely to kill themselves. Add to it that the church is ineffective in dealing with people struggling with real issues, prayer and scripture reading does not teach one how not to be socially awkward, the results are tragic.

What an interesting post. My husband's ex wife is one of those "outcasts" you write of. I think she has a couple of personality disorders, but in the past, she has suffered from depression and at one time was wrongly diagnosed as having bipolar disorder. The usual drugs did nothing for her, though.

We recently found out that my husband's very estranged older daughter (age 20) has some form of Asperger's and ADHD. The ex also has a young son who was diagnosed with autism. I'm guessing the older daughter finally got diagnosed when her five year old brother was. We found this information out on an autism message board my husband's ex wife posts on, not because she called my husband to tell him about his daughter.

Meanwhile my husband's younger daughter is demonstrating some of the same bizarre narcissistic behaviors her mother does. We know this because younger daughter has a blog which my husband discovered after finding a gushing comment his daughter left for someone after an EFY conference. At age 18, she acts as if the elderly church authorities are all rock stars and wonders why other people think she's weird (again, this is in her blog, not because she talks to us).

I'm sure they feel at home in the Mormon church... or maybe they don't. I can't imagine some nice "normal" RM from a healthy family hooking up with one of my husband's daughters... unless he's someone with an unusually strong need to rescue people. I think it's more likely they'll end up with someone more like them. I truly worry for future generations and hope that someone from that family turns out to be somewhat normal.

It's funny that you mention both Aspergers and ADHD. I have heard from some in the field that there is strong suspicion that the two disorders might be connected. Aspergers being a more sever version of ADHD, just as autism is a more severe form of Aspergers. I don't think it is official yet, but the two are commonly found in the same families.

The thing about Aspergers is that it is nicknamed the little professors disease. How one copes with it, is all dependent on their level of education. Some of our most brilliant minds had the disorder. Many speculate that their minds would not have been near as brilliant without it. An Asperger patient with little to no education might have few options in life, while one that goes to college has near limitless potential in their field of interest.

My husband's daughter is supposedly a brilliant artist. She is also supposedly a whiz at Sudoku. This is all information we got from her older brother who was still speaking to us at the time.

The one time I met her, in 2003 when she was almost 12, I was most worried about getting along with her over her younger, supposedly more social sister. But we seemed to hit it off from the start. The first words out of her mouth were an apology. She explained that she was very shy and might seem weird to me. That kind of broke my heart. I told her I didn't have to get to know her in one day. She visibly relaxed. Later, we all went bowling and this child came over and spontaneously gave me a big hug and called me her "other mother". She really seemed to want to bond.

Her younger sister, then aged 9, was going on and on about Mormon dogma. She badmouthed my husband's mother, whom she claimed sent her a Christmas card for her birthday. This was her complaint about her grandmother and her justification for refusing to speak to her. Later, she spotted a couple of bottles of beer in our refrigerator. She slapped my husband across the face and chastised him for "getting drunk". It was truly one of the most bizarre scenes I have ever seen. But later, everything was smoothed out and we ended up having a somewhat decent visit of less than 48 hours.

But after that one visit, my husband's ex wife went on the war path. That was the one and only time I ever saw them. I think my husband's older daughter must have more of his personality than her mother's.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/21/2012 09:24AM by knotheadusc.

>> "For one reason, Utah leads the nation in suicides."


http://www.afsp.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=home.viewPage&page_id=05114FBE-E445-7831-F0C1494E2FADB8EA
It is tied for 10th by my count.

Of interest:
Nevada, Arizona, Idaho, Colorado, Wyoming & New Mexico all have higher suicide rates than Utah. (AZ is a tie.)

So maybe it isn't so much being Mormon that makes you suicidal as being near them ;)

Those states all have large populations of Native Americans, some of whom have significant problems with alcoholism. I wonder what the racial breakdown is of those suicide figures. Guess it's time to go research the CDC's Web site.

3 on my street in the heart and belly of happy valley

thats 3 on one street-same ward.

: (

I was raised TBM, graduated from seminary, went on a mission, graduated from BYU (Summa Cum Laude). I attempted suicide 3 times before I realized I wasn't the one with problems - mormonism is. BTW, I was living in Utah Valley at the time.

Thank you your comments help a lot. I know suicide is an extreely personal choice but any idea how to get someone else to realize that they are not the one with the problem. (what does BTW mean)

btw = by the way

I'd say its more problems with people seeing the real reaosn.

A person puts you though hell. You are forced to do something about it and because you dont want to end up takeing that perons life out of sheer insanaty you take your own. Everyone will blame depression or lack of faith instead of the tormentor. The tormentor is the best person at puttingn the blame on somene else. In this instance the tormentor is the church.

Any way to hold them-the church- accountable?

Yes the church is accountable. What we have is a bunch of people suffering from real problems, needing real answers, who are taught to turn to the church. The church, instead of giving them useful answers, tells them to pray about it and read their scriptures. You read the scriptures, and they say the answer to all of life's problems are to pray about it and read scriptures. Might as well tell people to think about their problem, then hop on one leg, because that would be just as effective.

Kind of funny how an all knowing God, who loves us, forgot to give us realistic answers with how to deal with even the simplest problems in an effective way.

forbiddencokedrinker Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes the church is accountable. What we have is a
> bunch of people suffering from real problems,
> needing real answers, who are taught to turn to
> the church. The church, instead of giving them
> useful answers, tells them to pray about it and
> read their scriptures. You read the scriptures,
> and they say the answer to all of life's problems
> are to pray about it and read scriptures. Might
> as well tell people to think about their problem,
> then hop on one leg, because that would be just as
> effective.
>
> Kind of funny how an all knowing God, who loves
> us, forgot to give us realistic answers with how
> to deal with even the simplest problems in an
> effective way.

A friend of mine was having trouble fitting in at church and she was sent to a mormon for counseling and what you described above is basically what happened. I was bothered because the person's physical health was never even considered. When members said something nasty or insensitive, I told my friend not to get upset but to be indifferent.

I have tried to understand the church as having a perceived tormenting right or privilege based on their interpretation of scriptures and how they would do it. It would be a very long chat. Because they-the church has issues.

This appears to have come from Utah. http://www.progressiveawareness.org/articles/About_the_Founder_of_PAR.html

Put that with the last great emphasis on the voice/words of the mouth placed in temple ceremonies and their judgement privileges and you get a church with issues. Just wish I could wake up some suicidal people. Wish I could hold them-the church accountable.

The main reason I quit giving seminars to women in Utah was the shocking (to me) discovery that the problems most women suffered had nothing to do with time management or home management.

Almost every single one who contacted me about a personal issue spoke of suicide. And they were matter-of-fact about this, not crying but talking about crying throughout the day. I was not qualified to deal with that level of problem and referred them to professional help. Most of them thought they HAD professional help because they were counseling with their bishop.

I had no answer for a question like, "I seem to need the release of tears during the day, you know, the pressure, and I was wondering if you had any tips on how to keep my nose from running when I am cooking."

I was a convert and another part I found creepy was women smiling while they told me about suicidal thoughts.

All this joy in Happy Valley as well.

Anagrammy

They smile because death becomes a relese and an end to pain. You have no idea how much wanting it all to end makes you look at suiside as something wondful. There is no real enjoyment in life so all ther is is whateing to die.

This topic really strikes home for me. My TBM mom has "tried" to commit suicide many times. I don't think she would have gone through with it ever. She always just did it for attention. I have so many memories of my dad and brothers wrestling a gun or knife or pills out of her hands. Seriously how fucked up is that? Once before school in 2nd grade, she was brushing my hair and telling me it would be the last time she would ever do it. From what I've researched, she has borderline personality disorder. She is too proud to do anything about it though. The only counseling she gets is from her bishop. And striving for an unattainable perfection in the church only exacerbates her problem.

I never thought of suicide until I confronted gay in mormonism. I have thought of suicide many times in my life. The reason I didn't choose it at that time was because of mormon teachings and my fear of what my situation would be in the next life. Now, if I could have ceased to exist . . .

Suicide is ever present in my mind--believe it or not--and there have been many times I wished I could do it, but now I have children--even if they are 26, it would be selfish to leave them behind when I brought them into this world. My life is going quite well now considering where it had been, but I think you actually become familiar with the feelings.

No--I won't do it.

My son did make 2 suicide gestures after his divorce (he was only 21 or 22). The therapist said that he disassociated--and I'm sure he did. He remembers nothing. He doesn't even remember the hospital. (We didn't put him in the mental health ward--took him home. After reading runtu's experience in the MHW, I'd never let anyone be put in there.)

AND at a time in my life when I was extremely suicidal--don't know how I was managing to even live--I went to a doctor who was not a mormon and she wrote in my chart that I didn't appear depressed in the least. It is very easy to fool someone you don't know well. My therapist now--who I've been to for years--would know in a heartbeat by just my demeanor and I'd probably be smiling.

In the early 1970s I worked in the branch office of a Fortune 100 company in SLC UT. A co-worker, who was a salesman, had not been able to meet his sales quota for several months and so he was dismissed from the company. I remember going to lunch with him a few times during his last days with the company.

After four months of unsuccessfully looking for a new job he became discouraged and depressed. So one day he put a gun to his head, in the basement of his parents house, and ended his misery.

He was a TBM and I suspect that he could no longer bear the feeling that he was a failure. He was really a smart and likable young man and I don't think anybody in his family suspected that he was at risk for suicide.

He might have done the same thing even if he were not a Mormon -- nobody really knows. It was so very sad because he left a wife and young child behind. He had so much to live for.

I went to his funeral in the Stake Center. Very sad occasion.

I was suicidal most of my childhood and a good part of my young adulthood. In retrospect, most of it came from the feeling of being trapped, with no way out. In the household I grew up in, if you expressed your true feelings and rebelled against my narcissistic TBM mom, you were thrown into the loony bin. I watched this happen to both of my sisters more than once. I secretly attempted suicide multiple times, and the last time nearly killed me. After that, I decided that I really needed to take a long hard look at why I still had these issues, even after leaving TSCC. AFter a lot of therapy, I had an epiphany that if you don't deal with your trauma and issues from the past, they WILL come back to haunt you until you resolve them.

TSCC imposes too many restrictions and too much idealistic perfection- things that are impossible to keep up with 24/7. Making mistakes is looked down upon and if you confess your serious mistakes to the leaders, it'll probably come back to bite you in the ass later.
Couple that with being told your negative feelings (hurt, anger, sadness...) are unnatural and from Satan compunds the problems. Victim blaming is the norm in TSCC and victims of abuse are just told to basically "suck it up," pray, and you'll be fine.

IS it any wonder why there are so many suicidal people in TSCC?

Edit- knothead is right about the suicide being terrible among the American Natives; Here in the 4 corners area, the rez has something like triple the rate of suicide attempts than the rest of the nation. It's very tragic.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/21/2012 01:01PM by Itzpapalotl.

I thought about suicide a lot when I was a teenager living at home. The reason I didn't do it was because I decided I didn't want to give my mother the satisfaction of knowing she'd finally pushed me over the edge. I left home at 17 to save my sanity.

suicides and attemps are cries for help. often those in the churh leadership are unable to recognize the need for help, and they are most definately are incapable of providing that help. Their stock answers of pray and obey are not sufficent and often push the sufferer deeper into despair.

In my own experience as a multiple-attempter, I have attempted when I had concluded that there WAS no help and no one to cry out to. I do not want to talk to anyone when I am in that condition. I don't want anyone to interfere or try to soothe me with platitudes that only show they have no idea of what it's like to be so hopeless that one wants to die.

I know one person who staged a more-or-less fake attempt for attention, and this person needed the attention -- this is the only case I know of personally where the "attempt" could be considered a cry for help.

I know my experience does not necessarily reflect the state of mind of all other attempters, but in my opinion, by the time someone is ready to attempt, they are usually beyond wanting help or believing that any meaningful help is available. And they're often right. A lot of attention is paid to "suicide prevention" as if suicidal thoughts are a temporary crisis and only the thoughts need to be dealt with.


The reality is that the only way we're going to make any serious inroads in reducing the incidence of suicide is by creating a society that is more responsive to the practical needs of its members. People don't commit suicide because they've become irrational, but because they can't get their needs met -- often through no fault of their own. I know highly intelligent, highly educated people who have been shut out of the job market and will likely never be admitted to the ranks of the employed again -- not because they were bad workers, but sometimes because of nothing more than being physically unattractive or not good at small talk. I know people who have been horribly abused and suffer from PTSD as a result who cannot get therapy (and PTSD does respond to treatment) because they are uninsured. They live in a constant nightmare and know that treatment is available, but they can't have it. People in such situations are not irrational for recognizing the truth that there is not much hope of their lives getting better.

Perhaps in thair own mind they are thinking rationaly. they are out of the job market for one reson or another. Someone in thair life has tought them that not haveng a job is being a drian on sisiaty and that they are a failer. Them failing means they cant get the treatment they need. It litearely adds to the problem. Unless someone gives them a bit of real help and a bit of real hope theres no evidance of things getting better and thats why they have no hope.

When the fear of life is greater than the fear of death, suicide becomes a viable option. To be in this state, the suffering is deeper than what can be expressed in words. While some attempts may be "cries for help", I think most are a way to end the suffering that has become intolerable. Recovery and rebuilding a life can be a long process and church answers to pray and read the scriptures is like asking a person to just keep walking with two broken legs. In my opinion church leaders offer little for "real" life issues.