We spent our weekend "coming out" to our parents.

It sucked. A lot of heated, back and forth, point-by-point arguing.

Completely draining and depressing. Parents are broken-hearted and very worried about us.

Lots of second guessing. Are we just being too negative? Too cynical?

Got some information in the mail from my parent today about polygamy, which was given to her by my brother-in-law, who got it from his institute class. I think my parent really thought it was going to help me. I half-expected it to be something new, for the Church to have actually admitted some of the hard facts.
It's the same old drivel. Quotes from BY, JT, JS about how hard it was for them to accept this law from God.

Nothing about the methods used to procure wives. Nothing about how many they had. Nothing about polyandry. Nothing about "dirty, filthy affairs."

Parents are extremely concerned with our sources of information. This one point has me so, so, exhausted. They're so concerned about the negative spin they perceive on our sources, but they cannot see, for the life of them, that THEIR information is biased.

I've taken up a firm position of not discussing things with anyone anymore. It's all so much, too mind-boggling, too much information, soooo many things they don't know about which are FACTS, even quietly acknowledged by the Church, but they won't see that. So from now on, all I'm going to say to them is "I don't believe. I don't believe JS was a prophet, or anyone after him. I'm not going to practice faith in something that to me, is clearly a fraud. I have no motivation to practice faith in that. It comes down to: you believe it, I don't."

I'm wasted. I hate this sh*t.

I haven't come out to my parents yet and I'm sure it will be really dramatic when I do. I am sorry you have to deal with this bullshit. Do you feel like it's going to get better now or just worse? Is it worth it?

It'll get better. They'll back off. But they'll always be broken-hearted, and they'll always worry. Our relationships with all of our brothers, sisters, in-laws, will never be the same.

Yet another thing that I've come to despise about this church.

"It's the same old drivel. Quotes from BY, JT, JS about how hard it was for them to accept this law from God."

Easy reply. "Warren Jeffs uses these exact same excuses".

God commanded all humans not to lie. There is no caveat for the early profits lying about the practice of poligamy let alone "because it was hard".

John Taylors bald face lying in his "Three Nights Public Discussion" in 1850 in France where he lied about poligamy as he had five to eight wives at the time ended any support for poligamy whatsoever for me. Your either a liar, or your not. They lied systematically and still do.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/05/2012 05:44PM by AmIDarkNow?.

Here is a link to what the above poster was referring to:

http://olivercowdery.com/texts/1850Tayl.htm

I always think about what it would be like if my family knew the truth too. Life would be a lot easier. But since they probably will never know, I guess I just have to deal with it. At least discovering the truth has made me a more open-minded person and I'm better for it but it's already caused so much pain and guilt in my life. Fuck TSCC.

I don't believe and that's all there is to say.

Sorry this is so hard on you. I hate it when religion holds families hostage.

Rebeckah, agreed. Maybe the one follow up is, "And because my disbelief is so taboo to openly discuss, it should be blatantly obvious who's right and who's wrong."

I've come to believe that fact-based arguments are exhausting and leave one feeling depleted and leaves your Mormon family feeling like failures and heartbroken.

It is better to categorize one's apostasy as a "lost of the gift of faith based on research on (Joseph Smith, history, BOM, Book of Abraham, you choose)." In order to avoid explaining/defending our decision to leave the church, it is better to point them to facts available through church-approved sources. Just tell them you love them too much to risk misunderstandings and the facts which caught your attention might mean nothing to them.

When one leaves behind the church lying, it feels like sharing facts is "telling the truth," but wHen it comes to telling the truth to family members, religion is a lot like sex. The details are better left unsaid--even though family members can use their imagination if they want. It's just private.

Emphasize that you continue to honor the values you were taught, including the 11th Article of faith, and that you hope they will honor your free agency and not take it personally.

The wonderful thing about families is that you have plenty of time to live down any assumptions they've made about you and your morals. All you can really do is be kind to them and live a joyous, wonderful life of your own choosing.

Anyone that really loves you will be happy for you, even if they lose their fantasy of life in the hereafter on Kolob or whatever.

:)

Anagrammy



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/05/2012 09:19PM by anagrammy.

Anagrammy said it beautifully. You don't need to explain yourself. Tell them that you just simply no longer believe.

Hang in there. When I sat my parents down and told them I didn't believe JS was a true prophet and the church wasn't true, my mother broke down and cried. They wanted to resolve my concerns and I said there was no use talking about it. I knew they wouldn't change because of anything I said, and I said I didn't want to be the person to attack their faith (I knew it would only hurt the relationship more, if that is possible.)

Every since then, our relationship has been very superficial. I have dreams about screaming in their face how untrue it is. I would love for them to leave the church, but they are TBM and it would take JS, Monson and Jesus himself to convince them in person. Then they would just say "this is my test, this must be satan, I will be valiant, I will have faith and ignore all reason, evidence and follow the spirit." Barf.

Things have gotten better with time if I don't keep pouring salt in the wound. But it is hard to forget your own mother sobing with her head down in true sorrow over my actions.

But it is still better than choosing the blue pill.

Anagrammy, I always love reading the things you have to say!

Remember how you felt when you began doubting, and then looked up a few church sources on the "mis-information" you thought would be disproved? How four hours on the internet could dissolve a testimony that you had sacrificed for, suffered for, paid for, born witness to... It made you physically ill, anxious, and you knew for sure that life would NEVER be the same. Give them some time, and you might suggest they do some personal studying. Part of the problem you face is that they have each other to reinforce the myth. Ask them to play investigator, and try to look at the church as an investigator would. You have put a crack in their armor, and hopefully it will, someday lead them to the truth.

Your parents are the source of their own sorrow, not you. They're the ones choosing to be closed minded, not you.

Don't worry about it. They will try to guilt you for what's their own doing. It's a choice they freely make. It's disgusting that they try to make you out to be the guilty one, when it's them.

Go and be happy. They're just screwed up cultists and life's too short. Be free. Don't even think about it any more.

"Your parents are the source of their own sorrow, not you."

That is so true!!

It situations where I am knocked-down dragged-out, I can have a beer, and sex with my pretty wife, or even both at the same time.

Its a combo that makes up for a lot.

I really relate to the sense of utter exhaustion that comes over me when I have to explain to a TBM friend or family member why I no longer believe. It is so draining to have to repeat stories and concerns and share a narrative of doubt and lies and deceptions. Just yesterday I had an old friend send a long Facebook message to me over concerns about my obvious "struggle" with my testimony...I'm not even going to write back to say I have resigned, I'm just going to ignore it. The energy wasted in a response is not worth being expended.

Because they're not arguing.
An "argument" means you base conclusions on premises using logic.
A TBM starts with the conclusion and forces the premises to fit it. It's backwards. It's not logic or "argument" at all, and you can't win because they're just making it up out of thin air. You can't argue with them because they don't follow the rules of an argument. They cheat, they use logical fallacies, they blame you, they bury you with endless made-up what-ifs, and in the end no matter what you say they say "I don't care what evidence you think you have" (quoting my wife verbatim).

It's no-win.

EXACTLY, MORmONISM will NEVER stand up to real argument because its based ENTIRELY on BS!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36B-c58_WPo

Parents, I can see MAYBE going into some detail, although I think it's pointless, draining, and a waste of time.
I never bothered to tell my mother when we resignated ourselves in '06.

For everybody else, why bother?
Just a simple "We have spent considerable time studying, no longer believe, and won't discuss it" should suffice.
Anything more than that & you participate wllingly in exhausting yourself with no different outcome than if you'd just kept it brief in the beginning.

"...when I have to explain..."?
You don't "have" to explain anything beyond "We no longer believe."

Practice makes perfect.

Eventually you learn how to short circuit an attempt to drag you back in, and find other things to talk about with those who remain inside. My brother, for instance, was never as active and faithful as I was when I was active, and a lot of other stuff like my mom's own excommunication might make my case seem special or easier in some ways. But he and his wife have their own reasons (a lot of them practical by my analysis) for being active members, and while I kind of pity them in their bondage, I still love him, at least as much as I ever did, we've never been all that much in sync. But at least we don't get into physical wrestling matches on the rare occasions we see one another, something that happened frequently in our teens and not really in a kidding, horseplay sort of way. Now we usually manage to stick to subjects that are safe for both of us.

Then again, he probably also appreciates than any attempt to snow me with doctrine would result only in his own embarrassment and stunned silence if we were really to go at it and I let loose with all my debating skills. We also avoid politics in general, and I usually get filled in on his beliefs and strange pronouncements by my younger brother, who delivers them as a comedy routine.

Better to talk about his grandchildren and the challenges of dealing with his wife's daughter from an earlier marriage.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/06/2012 09:30AM by ambivalentsince1850s.

I wasn't able to figure it out myself for a long time, and was very depressed when my own RM son backed out of the church. But I had been a doubter. It finally occurred to me that there are independently confirmed sources, that it's not just some simple black/white, pro-Mormon/anti-Mormon affair. Even facts having to do with the One True Church have to be able to withstand scrutiny, at least to the extent of inviting people to check out what is available without being fearful of results and consequences, and without the great orchestration that we see in the LDS church. More importantly, no one can make these things so necessary for one's salvation and then shrink away anytime it is challenged as the Mormon church does. When this can be seen, then there is progress.

Why bother to explain yourselves. There is no need to discuss your religious beliefs with anyone.

Adults can join or leave religions. Most people in the real world do not even bother bringing it up.

It's cults that won't let go and certain evangelical belief systems which feel the need to bother others with their delusions.

But arguing about religion is generally not done in polite society.

Don't worry, you are doing the right thing.

The LDS church is the poster child for apostasy. You are doing the right thing leaving an organization that is OBVIOUSLY NOT a church that is based on Christ-directed principles.

LDS is not led by principles of Christ otherwise it would use its massive amount of money for HUMANITARIAN purposes rather than COMMERCIAL REAL ESTATE DEVELOPMENT.

In the meantime, take care of yourself. Choose healthy ways to work through your grief...because that is what is going on. You are grieving and so are your TBM family and friends. I'm so sorry you are going through this. It is a situation every Mormon who learns truth must face. And it hurts. You are not alone. My hope for you is: You will reach a point where you can embrace being genuine and authentic without gulit and shame. You will realize that you are not responsible for how others feel. You will set appropriate boundaries and be strong enough to hold them in place. And you will enjoy being free and be able to engage in "loud laughter"!!!!!

anontoday Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > Lots of second guessing. Are we just being too
> negative? Too cynical?
>

> Parents are extremely concerned with our sources
> of information. This one point has me so, so,
> exhausted. They're so concerned about the negative
> spin they perceive on our sources, but they cannot
> see, for the life of them, that THEIR information
> is biased.
>
>






let's face it, the negatives and deception in the history and present day mormonism have nothing to do with us. It's not our fault it is what it is. If calling a spade a spade is negative the leaders should have thought of that when persuing negative choices and tactics. That entire responsibility falls squarely on the shoulder of the 15, not on us. I'd like to see that ball get thrown back into it's proper court.

That said, I try to look at my personal life experiences as lessons and get what I need to from it. Many are hard lessons but I can find a positive from my own experiences and apply them to my life in a positive way without making excuses for, or taking responsibility for, the negative deceptions and manipulation which I had absolutely NO control over. All I can do is make lemonade outta lemons sorta thing. In that way I can put a positive spin on my own life invovlement with Mormonism, but I'm not going to excuse any of the leaders or cover-up for them, that's their PR job. :)

wow, my grammar was horrendous. I'm very tired today.

anontoday Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Quotes from BY, JT, JS
> about how hard it was for them to accept this law
> from God.

Crocodile tears.

> Parents are extremely concerned with our sources
> of information. This one point has me so, so,
> exhausted. They're so concerned about the negative
> spin they perceive on our sources, but they cannot
> see, for the life of them, that THEIR information
> is biased.

It is amazing how Mormons think the slightest thing that looks at all positive for the Mormon position is PROOF!!! But a ton of evidence that clearly exposes JS as a clueless fake is "not important" or "has been dealt with repeatedly" etc. That they don't see the disconnect is as amazing as it is endemic in Mormonism. I've been through this with my brother the institute director. He dismisses TONS of stuff with "The Book of Mormon is not an archaeology text," or "we can't know what Brigham Young meant unless we could read his mind." But he accuses me of dismissing things "out of hand" after I've researched it and shown it to be false.

They have "confirmation bias" up the wazoo.

> I've taken up a firm position of not discussing
> things with anyone anymore. It's all so much, too
> mind-boggling, too much information, soooo many
> things they don't know about which are FACTS, even
> quietly acknowledged by the Church, but they won't
> see that. So from now on, all I'm going to say to
> them is "I don't believe. I don't believe JS was a
> prophet, or anyone after him. I'm not going to
> practice faith in something that to me, is clearly
> a fraud. I have no motivation to practice faith in
> that. It comes down to: you believe it, I don't."
>
> I'm wasted. I hate this sh*t.

You don't owe anyone a justification of your beliefs. Say, "I don't believe it," and leave it at that. If they start laying apologetic crap on you, accuse them of "bashing" your beliefs. It's not your job to refute the mountains of BS that the army of apologists have shoveled out over the past century. It's THEIR job to show that this crap that was written and published by their propagandists really is as good as they think it is.

I recently came out to my parents too. It was not pleasant, mostly because I felt so bad about disappointing them, but I do think it was worth it. I went into detail the same as you did, because they did sit and listen and I tried to explain to them my experience. I am glad I did it, because now I don't have to worry every time I go over that they might notice I don't have a garment line under my t-shirt, or something stupid like that. I also sent them John Dehlin's video on www.whymormonsleave.com, and they watched it and I hope it helped them understand how it is possible for someone to come to the conclusion I have.
Good luck and hang in there. I believe it is worth it.