I didn't realize TSSC acknowledged the different versions of the "first vision". They say they complement each other, but, I don't see how. Seems like damage control to me.

http://www.lds.org/study/topics/accounts-of-the-first-vision?lang=eng

"Each account reflects a particular perspective for distinct audiences and purposes."

One of the major bullshit excuses ever in my book, because JS couldn't keep his stories straight.

Chicken'n'backpacks Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "Each account reflects a particular perspective
> for distinct audiences and purposes."
>


Sure. I'd agree with that to point. Joseph told different stories based on who he was talking to and when— all for the desired effect. Whether the FV actually took place or what happened is of little importance. It is the effect that Joseph want to elicit that matters.

It's the same today with Mormonism. Joseph was only beginning what Paul H Dunn did later. Facts are secondary. Only feeling and belief matter.

It is what Boyd K Packer is promoting now.
"Your objective should be that they will see the hand of the Lord in every hour and every moment of the Church from its beginning till now......

Some things that are true are not very useful."

They've only just begun.
Line upon line, precept upon precept, they are going to try an deceive members for round 2 of mormonism.
They better have some good writers, they have a lot of BS to wade through.

No apologies needed. When people accept the resurrection of Jesus of the vision of Apostle Paul face value, Joseph's vision lacks no less grandeur.

I love how in Mopologetics "contradicts" = "compliments."

Of course they don't actually let the Morgbots read the actual accounts.

I thought it interesting to say "Together, his accounts provide a more complete record of what occurred." But, then they don't show the other versions. They ignore them and instead say "The 1838 account found in the Pearl of Great Price is the primary source referred to in the Church."

Why don't they show the other versions and explain how it is they "complement" each other.

I suppose this is for the members that have heard about other versions, and now they can dismiss them, since according to the church, they just go along with what we already have.

They are still singing:

Oh how lovely was the morning, radiant beamed the sun above lalalallllaaa.......

When appeared TWO heavenly beings, GOD THE FATHER AND THE SON!

I'll tell you why they don't link you to anywhere that you can actually read the other versions for yourself. Because it's the fastest way to get new members for RFM.

This was the thing that actually solidified it for me more than 10 years ago. I did find a link to all the versions of the first vision. Even though I hated the church and actually wished I could find the thing that would give me a 100% testimony of the falsity of it, I still felt like someone had knocked the wind out of me when I read the different versions for myself. But the thing that really nailed it was when I went looking for the apologetics. I thought the church must have a place where they can refute it, where they would show me that someone was making it all up. Trust me, the different versions did NOT complement each other. They totally contradicted the whitewashed "official" version I grew up with, which I realized was written 17 years after the fact and was not the first but the last version authorized (not written by) Smith.

What I found when I went looking at the church's answers were this message by Oaks that they all really somehow said the same thing. JS was just "emphasizing" different things depending on the audience he was speaking too. WTF???? I just wanted to scream, "Have you f@cking READ them????" They never discredited any of them. They never refuted them. That was it for me and when I got my wits back about me, I realized that I was finally free. Truly free. No ever second guessing myself and wondering if maybe there were some truth in the church.

I'm sure I am very typical of people who would feel the same way if they actually read it for themself. If they can just accept this pablum by the church, stick their heads back in the sand and go "la la la la la la," then this is all we have to feed thm.

I met the missionaries in the libiary and showed them facts of recorded true history account of Joe smiths first vision how the church today covered it all up.

They firstly believe that all those witness's including Joe smiths mother, his wife, and everyone else in the community and other churches got together and lied or bared false witness against the prophet out of jellousy because he said that there churches was abomination in gods eyes etc.

They also said even if was true, dates and facts that could proove the first vision not accurate they still would not leave the church and live by blind faith, stateing for family values its worth it for a good life on earth being a mormon even if its built apon a lie.. They threw the facts evidence that I photo copied into the bin after they personally read it out.

They believed the the other angel preaching another gospel that the bible warns against that all and church would be under a curse, did not apply to angel moroni and his message was the new and everlasting covenant, and the book that cried from the dust that bared witness that the bible was true but the book of mormon was more pure as a second witness. They also believed that feeling was everything to witness the holyghost and bare testimony rather than accept the word of the bible that warns against feelings and warm fuzzies as deceptive of false spirits
did not apply as the holyghost of mormonism and the living prophets of mormonism is above the bible..

Wow and blasphemy these mormons must be and on top of it, poligamy restored that didnt work anyway, and self blood atone sacrifice, to sealing up temple ordinances for exaltation and becomming gods but not without death threat tokens and signs now done away with since 1990, and the fact such a reward to become gods and having eternal procreation was to good to refuse is the cult of mormonism and like catholicism and any other priesthood pagen sunday, cult, the bible says in revelations 14, and the whole world wandered after the beast.

If christians catch the fish and christ cleans them then
mormons clean the fish first and the devil catches them.
The levite priest of ancient to modern day levite mormon priests walk on by to get to the temple, ignore the lowly begger wounded lieing in a ditch, while a good samariton stops to help, who is the greater example as christ taught in this parable? why all this money billions for a shopping mall etc spent by funds in the church when it could help the poor?
food for thought but are mormons christian?
I say from being a lowly begger that got help from a good samariton ignored by mormon priests at my most wounded, that I found the real jesus entered into his rightousness and denied my own stinking filthy rags of rightousness. By the blood of jesus I have been purchased already by grace. After all we can do just surrender and accept the fullness of his grace, that leads to naturally keeping all the commandments, at least the 10 anyway including the true saturday sabbath to be sure, but yes follow prophets of sunday relegions and we put him above the bible word convictions trusting in feeling instead, we could be wandering after the beast and breaking the original 4th commandment, levitical law to be unchanged the bible says, remember always and keep the 7th day holy (saturday). That is legalistic necessity and a general authority on my mission once said he believed the prophet will change it back in time to test the saints if truly christian to give up their jobs on saturday and come to church as by then all who heed the true sabbath will be cut off from one world marshel law western govenment that rule the world, catholic and masonary jesuit backing mainly, for food/money etc as there want be any cash flow no buying or selling allowed outside of the one world govenment rule. Many will starve, be imprisoned and even die who go against sunday marshel law, the devils greatest con job using false relegion that supports his catholic change false pagen sunday (sun worship day) to decieve millions and the bible says revelations once again, and the whole world wandered after the beast.. Does the mormon prophet justify allowing pagen sabbath worship until then and the billions of dollars of church selfish money can then save its people who need help going against the beast and one world govenment. If the sunday mormonism does not change then catholic and mormonism is together in the beast 666 prophecy of western control.
Just see prophet Monson and ex president Hinkley using the 33 degree patriarchal grip masonary hand shake with US president Bush and the pope captured in photo graphs. And every one who is active mormon said who cares, I still know the church is true and will remain a faithful member of it and sustain the prophet with all my heart and jump over a clift if it was asked in blind leading the blind in faith, we would do it. Hail the mormon prophet. we know that Jesus smith was a prophet and our lord joesph christ who we answer to, will be our final judge as no one enters the celestial world without answering to joe smith.
larry...

Larry...

The legend says that Hiram Abiff was visited by TWO divine creatures. Joseph stole all his best material from the masons, dontchaknow:

IN THE FIELDS OF CHAOS

The first flush of awakening Life pierced the impenetrable expanse of Cosmic Night, turning the darkness of negation into the dim twilight of unfolding being. Silhouetted against the shadowy gateways of Eternity, the lonely figure of a mystic stranger stood upon the nebulous banks of swirling substance. Robed in a shimmery blue mantle of mystery and his head encircled by a golden crown of dazzling light, the darkness of Chaos fled before the rays that poured like streams of living fire from his form divine.

From some Cosmos greater far than ours this mystic visitor came, answering the call of Divinity. From star to star he strode and from world to universe he was known, yet forever concealed by the filmy garments of chaotic night. Suddenly the clouds broke and a wondrous light descended from somewhere among the seething waves of force; it bathed this lonely form in a radiance celestial, each sparkling crystal of mist gleaming like a diamond bathed in the living fire of the Divine.

In the gleaming flame of cosmic light bordered by the dark clouds of not-being two great forms appeared and a mighty Voice thrilled eternity, each sparkling atom pulsating with the power of the Creator's Word while the great blue-robed figure bowed in awe before the foot-stool of His Maker as a hand reached down from heaven, its fingers extended the benediction.

"Of all creation I have chosen you and upon you my seal is placed. You are the chosen instrument of my hand and I appoint you to be the Builder of my Temple. You shall raise its pillars and tile its floor; you shall ornament it with metals and with jewels and you shall be the master of my workmen. In your hands I place the plans and here on the tracing board of living substance I have impressed the plan you are to follow, tracing its every letter and angle in the fiery lines of my moving finger. Hiram Abiff, chosen builder of your Father's house, up and to your work. Yonder are the fleecy clouds, the grey mists of dawn, the gleams of heavenly light, and the darkness of the sleep of creation. From these shall you build, without the sound of hammer or the voice of workmen, the temple of your God, eternal in the heavens. The swirling, ceaseless motion of negation you shall chain to grind your stones. Among these spirits of not-being shall you slack your lime and lay your footings; for I have watched you through the years of your youth; I have guided you through the days of your manhood. I have weighed you in the balance and you have not been found wanting. Therefore, to you give I the glory of work, and here ordain you as the Builder of my House. Unto you I give the word of the Master Builder; unto you I give the tools of the craft; unto you I give the power that has been vested in me. Be faithful unto these things. Bring them back when you have finished, and I will give you the name known to God alone. So mote it be."

http://www.rgle.org.uk/The%20Lost%20Keys%20of%20Freemasonry.pdf

Joseph Smith got dates and details mixed up, they say. As you age and your memories fall farther into the past, you begin to remember different aspects of an experience depending on your current life experiences that are triggering the memories. You might even place two real events that happened years apart into the same memory, and you might selectively recall only Jesus, since after Elohim's brief introduction he was the one who did all the talking.

It doesn't mean that the events didn't actually happened, they may have just not been remembered the same way with each telling, etc... and so forth, whatever it takes to carve yourself out the intellectual space you need to believe.

Yes, but the disparity between the accounts is what is alarming--"Oh, I forgot to mention it was Jesus. Or Jesus AND the Father. Or it was just an angel. And it told me the other churches were wrong. Or it didn't."

Again, I think the biggest deal is even though they were intended for different audiences and different purposes, something so incredibly significant should not be just complementary, but should mention the BIG IDEAS that the 1838 canonized version contained. Why does the church feel it can choose that one and say it is THAT one? Or is that the one that J.S. chose as the "official".

It is a weak arguement to say that the differing accounts arose from different "audiences" and the need to tell them things they could "accept". Why tell Oliver Cowdery something other than the "truth" (two beings appeared to me, God the father and the son., etc.)?

At any rate, at some point, to the honest seeker of truth, the sheer weight of these complicated explanations for story changing just gets to be too heavy. At that point no other reasonable explanation exists other than someone made up a story and kept changing it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/23/2012 11:05AM by elcid.

Okay, two quick points-
Why did Joseph bring forth scriptures that contradicted the deities described in his official account? Luke 22 jst, Moses, Lectures on Faith, D&C, Book of Mormon.

Why did Joseph create scriptures that would have upheld what he LATER wrote in his 1832 version, (which appears to be the result of the reporter from Tiffanys magazine that in his interview JSjr gave no christian account for his uthority, meaning the typical vision of Chrsit)?

Answer- Joseph Smith believed in the same nature of God that the typical protestant religions did WHEN he brought forth the Book of Mormon and subsequent scriptures.

Point three...if Joseph told a different version depending on the venue including his scribes who never heard about the official version, did he lie EVERY time he told it?

And if you get right down to it, until 1832 or so, everybody knew about his First Vision which was of Moroni, but Nobody knew about God or Jesus or both appearing to him.

this came out this week http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OW0f971qJLQ

That video was so lame... There were more than 3 accounts of the first vision... guess we need to ignore everything else. I know they are trying to sell a book, but, why buy something that isn't going to tell the whole story, just the church sanctioned sanitized version. I suppose you do what you have to in order to continue to believe.

yes ... very lame. The guy seemed like he was going to burst in his blue shirt. You can almost imagine some GA pushing that guy on the stage... "come on man, just start tap dancing"

I'm a mom and when my kids got into trouble and their stories kept evolving with each telling I had no choice but to discipline them for lying to me. JS's evolving "first vision" is nothing less than a lie.

The original strategy was "hide it all in the vault."

But it got out. So then they changed to "write an article in the ENSIGN with a lot of spin so we can say we haven't hidden anything."

Now too many people know too much due to the internet so they have to go to the "OK, we admit it but only with the proper background music."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/23/2012 03:40PM by baura.

I was first told about multiple versions of the 'first vision' story when I was in HS by a SS teacher. What I was told was that JS wrote about the same exact incident, but that the initial writings were when he was still a kid, so they were written poorly, & with no sophistication or nuance. When I was told this, I was already an unbeliever, so I didn't even attempt to look into it further, but it definitely didn't make sense to me.