Recently BYU has shifted from the policies of Packer's speech "To the One" and has allowed openly gay students who are celibate to attend.

Does this preclude holding hands with a member of the same sex on campus?

I, as a hetero, can wrestle with the other guys, grab them around the neck and give them noogies, pat them on the butt after a touchdown and hug them after we win the game. But would I be allowed to walk across campus holding hands with another guy?

Of course I mean just regular holding hands, not in a temple-token grip.

Everything that means is still suppressed. These people are not living an open authintic life, they are still taught that it is wrong to BE gay and by BE I mean live and LOVE as who they are.

My understaning is the polocy excludes any gay behavior.

MJ Wrote:
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> My understaning is the polocy excludes any gay
> behavior.

But I think baura is asking what constitutes "gay behavior." Spontaniously smiling at the cute boy in bio?

And in the asking, shows how stupid BYU continues to be.

That's just it, a look may be enough to get someone in trouble. This sort of policy leads to thing gay people like to call "whitch hunts". Same thing happened with Don't ask don't tell. It was supposed to be a policy that gays could be gay if they did not act on it, that isn't what really happened. The policy is very vauge and is leaves a lot to interpretation so it can be applied quite arbitrarally as is done with much of LDS punishment.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/09/2012 11:21PM by MJ.

It is all so ridiculous isn't it? I really like your angle on it.

You made me remember when I was on an entertainment tour in Europe with a BYU group. I made friends with these kids from Italy and one of the guys held my hand while we were walking around the city. I knew it meant nothing, was loving it because he was hot, and best of all the other BYUers were aghast.

Then the Russian group of guys kissed us goodbye on the lips when we parted, and not just dry pecks. The other guys were all freaking and I was savoring.

I met my first two boyfriends at the Wilkinson Center at BYU. Everybody knew it was the best place to meet guys. I hope those kids in the BYU Gay video are faking it. I hope they are loving and being loved and nobody knows. It was great to be an outlaw. I wouldn't trade it.

I only worry about the ones that are really getting hurt because they buy the churches lies and won't be outlaws --not sure of themselves enough to be undercover, to grab real life.

Please go to BYU and hold hands with one of your straight friends and let us know what happens. It would be fascinating. All the straight kids can hold hands and kiss and still be considered chaste, so if you are gay and do the same, aren't they still chaste as well?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/08/2012 02:03PM by blueorchid.

So... I was in IFD from about '83-'89 and I now know that a $hitload of us were gay and enjoying holding hands in circle dances way more than anyone let on. I'm pretty sure I missed out on a hot hookup between two of my roommates and two guys from a Spanish group while on tour in Europe too. Sigh. So many missed opportunities.

Yes, I was IFD too, 71 to 74. A lot of guys I knew in it were gay but all got married in the Temple. I was just sick for their wives. You know when someone doesn't crave your flesh, you know?

I've often wondered how their lives turned out. One of them lived by "The Miracle of Forgiveness" or as I call it, "The Mormon Guide to Self Torture". I don't see how that could turn out well.

I managed to be miserable without getting married (I guess more people would have had more misery if I had...) because for whatever reason I didn't come out until 1.5 years ago at age 46. That's when I started getting in touch with people from my past and began finding out how very deeply closeted the IFD guys had been. We spent 24/7 together for 5-6 *weeks* at a time while on tour, countless hours rehearsing back in Provo, and a bunch of us lived together as roommates. There could not have been a closer bunch of men on campus and we NEVER let on to each other that we were gay. If BYU is no longer a place where that happens, then maybe there's hope.

I wonder how many clothes we shared... there was way less turnover in costumes back in our time than there is today from what I hear. I probably wore your sweaty old polyester cossack pants!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/09/2012 12:14AM by Inverso.

Wow. A year and a half. I am so glad for you that you made it out and you are here.

Sometime while I was at BYU in the first half of the last decade (2000-2006) the administration came out with guidelines for what constitutes "homosexual behavior" as the term is used in the honor code. From what I can remember, the term includes:

touching in a sensual way
going on exclusive or group dates
giving to or accepting from someone of the same sex any type of romantic gift (I remember this one specifically because it seemed to be more drastic than necessary)

So, basically, unless things have changed in the last 5 or so years, MJ is correct. The most you can do is say that you are gay and that you do not plan on taking steps to change that.

Melly Wrote:
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> giving to or accepting from someone of the same
> sex any type of romantic gift

I'd like to see how the definition of "romatic gift" gets argued at Honor Code hearings.

dildo I sent to him

Man, they need to get out of that church. That's what I would do. I would not put up with such a thing. I would want to quietly rebel.

Or go to another school. I wonder if the SDA college my grandmother wanted me to go to had such rules.

You're also allowed to make out with girls hardcore in the middle of campus, and you would still be considered completely celibate and worthy in their eyes. The biggest thing you would have to fear is one of those campus bicycle police coming over and asking you to stop (though that rarely happens).

All of this "homosexual feelings are not sinful - only homosexual actions are" and "we hold homosexuals to the same sexual standards" is a bunch of BS.

Is that considered sexual conduct? No. Would it be if two guys were walking across campus holding hands? Absolutely. So tell me how that is holding them to the same standards.

"You know when someone doesn't crave your flesh, you know?"

I know you know what I'm talking about. I am so happy for you that you finally found your old boyfriend and get the real deal this time. I have always connected to your story.