I've read many of the topics and responses and came to the conclusion that I may be unique in my thoughts - but probably not. I served in a bishopric for over 5 years and realized my faith was slowly dwindling away the more I studied, prayed and all of that good stuff. I no longer believe the dogma or doctrine and believe the church (and all organized religion) is merely a platform to exercise control over others and gain wealth for a select few. I don't feel anything during SM when others are crying about something spiritual spoken from the pulpit. I feel dead inside. I watched every session of the April GC and tried to feel what I once did, however, I didn't feel anything other than increasingly disconnected.

I put on a happy face for the family and serve as requested, however, I am not getting any fulfillment out of it. I feel those "good" feelings only when I've served or helped others - usually outside of the church organization.

Why don't I send a letter to the SP and get my name removed in 30 days? Lots of reasons. Family, friends, identity, alienation, disappointing my parents.....The biggest reason? There isn't a better option out there. While the church is founded on less than truthful "happenings", there are lots of good people in the church trying to do good things. I'm proud to be associated with them and be able to call them friends. I know this sounds like I just don't want to face the challenge, and maybe that's correct, however, it makes life easier for those loved ones in mine.

Just curious.

That is also my question. What are they doing that's good?

You chose to ignore what the church attempts to stand for. Ie, strong family values, being kind to one another and essentially do as Christ would do. Other stands that they have taken on homosexuality, who can hold the priesthood, limited charitable giving, spending tithing money on 'for profit' enterprises, I disagree with.

However, it appears that bitterness and blinders will not allow you to see a little bit of good being done.

I too see good in the church, but I don't know of anything, nor do I see anything on your list, that is unique to mormonism. In fact, I learned this stuff much better outside of mormonism than I ever did from mormon sources.

For instance, mormonism does teach strong family values, but its doctrine essentially alienates any family member that doesn't play the mormon game. When this happens families usually have to reach outside of mormon doctrine to act inclusively towards the disbelieving member, if they do at all. Otherwise they will simply try to bring the wayward member "back into the fold" which amplifies the alienation (unless, of course, it works, meaning that once again they are playing the mormon game).

As for being kind to one another, that is just a simple human trait that you can learn virtually anywhere. I have seen no indication that mormons are kinder or less-kind than anyone else. However, I have seen that mormonism DOES in fact foster the belief that the rest of the world is less-kind than mormons are. Many mormons have gotten past this, but it is not a standard mormon trait to emphasize any evidence that a given non-mormon is kinder than a given mormon. That's not faith-promoting, and faith-promotion trumps good values in mormonism.

Not to say the good values aren't there, but the priorities are badly skewed, and none of the good values are unique.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/10/2012 04:44PM by kimball.

If you can't explain what they are doing that's good, how is that our fault.

Besides, I disagree with their "strong family values."

It's lip service.

And you know it too.

Do you know how you know it?

Because you're the one who can't even say what he really believes to his own family.

And why is that?

Not because of our "bitterness and blinders" but because your church is so crappy that it pits family members at odds against each other.

Stop projecting.

Seriously. Who?

Point is, anything of good report offered by Mormonism can be found elsewhere. And it won't cost you 10%. And you won't have to give tacit support to the institutional church on issues where you disagree with them.

*shrug*. Your life. Live it as you see fit. For me, Mormonism was hell. And whatever good it may offer to you, I did not find it there for myself.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/10/2012 04:44PM by elee.

The devil will tell a lot of truth to sell the lie...

I don't believe the "little bit of good being done" is worth the price the church puts on it.

I think you underestimate the damage the church is doing with the "Other stands that they have taken on homosexuality, who can hold the priesthood, limited charitable giving, spending tithing money on 'for profit' enterprises" that you don't agree with.

Let's also not forget that they are not pro-family as none of my wife's family were invited to our wedding as they were not members of the church. That, with other "family promoting" policies caused a rift between the two sides of our family that have taken 15 years to heal.

I, personally, think you are still choosing to ignore the facts.

I agree that the image that the LDS promotes good family values is a great deception. They should say:

"We promote strong family values, but only so long as your family fits our mold...
-If there are two husbands, then we think your family shouldn't exist.
-If there are two wives, then only if there's a husband in the mix will we turn a blind eye, since we used to do that ourselves.
-If you don't have lots of children then you should think about what the savior told us regarding multiplying and replenishing the earth. We don't care if you don't have the time or money for them, if you don't have as many as possible you should repent and rethink your family.
-If you don't all pay us 10% of your income, for which we are not accountable, we won't seal you for eternity.
-If you don't all believe the church is true then we won't seal you for eternity.
-If you drink a cup of coffee, even once a month, and don't think it's wrong, we won't seal you for eternity.
-If you are having safe and responsible sex and thus "kicking the tires," we won't seal you for eternity.
-If you don't agree with your bishop or any other church leader, we won't seal you for eternity.
-If any of your family stops believing in the church, you will no longer be with them for eternity.
-If you screw up and don't make the celestial kingdom, you won't be with your family for eternity.
-Nobody who is not mormon and never becomes mormon will be with their family for eternity.
-If your spouse screws up and doesn't make the celestial kingdom, no matter how much you love them and only them, God will split you up and give you to someone else for eternity.
-God ultimately has control of your kids. If they screw up and don't make the celestial kingdom, not only will God hold you partially responsible, but you will not be allowed to be with them any more for eternity.
-Because of the tight restrictions made on not having your family forcibly separated after death, your primary goal in life should be to make sure that your family and every member of it fits the mormon mold. Only then can you ensure togetherness forever. Nothing matters more than this - not even getting along in this life.

-Oh, and of course, because sealing families for eternity is so special, we will not permit any friends or relatives who don't fully play along to even witness it. Some say it's because we like ensuring all those extra tithing dollars, but really we're just too embarrassed to have a non-believer see the secret handshake and green aprons. The extra tithing dollars are just the screening test to make sure only "worthy" family members get to be part of this special occasion. If the couple being sealed shows a lack of valiance and has a civil wedding first so that the unworthy can be a part of it, we will punish them by making them wait one full year before they can be sealed for eternity, regardless of how worthy of the sealing they may be.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 04/10/2012 05:11PM by kimball.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/10/2012 05:16PM by kimball.

Your argument is ad hominem. Instead of making an argument you call those who don't agree with you bitter. As for your claims of what the good the church does you are on shaky ground. You can claim they support family values all you want, while the reality is that families are torn apart by this religion--mine for instance. Since you appear to be unaware of it, Christ did not at any point organize religion--in fact his entire ministry was underscoring the hipocracy of organized religion. Yes the church does build many great things, not unlike the pyramids built with the sweat and labor of thousands of laborers.

If you want to be known as Christian I suggest you first learn what it means. How can you profess to know the answer when you don't even fully grasp the question?

Edit: the post to which I replied was removed.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/10/2012 04:49PM by The Man in Black.

Lots of organizations promote good family values and teach kindness. In my experience, this church teaches members to be kind to each other, but not necessarily to those of other persuasions (unless it's kindness for a purpose... to get them to join).

Simply "attending" a family wedding causes more angst and anger than I've ever seen in any other religion -- on what is supposed to be a happy occasion. So sad to see family members separated in the unworthy room. Those are not my kind of family values. It's immoral and nefarious, not sacred.

Your tithing dollars go to support agendas and activities that repress women, and gays through legislation.

But maybe you support that stuff too, if it doesn't stick out like a BIG problem to you.

But you're a dude, and privilege is rarely evident to its owner.


ETA: I see I called it. Bigot.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/10/2012 04:47PM by WinksWinks.

You don't believe it. Why should you be involved with it?

Seems like a lack of integrity on your part, actually.

The Mormon church is an abusive, manipulative, deceptive cult. Why stay?

If it doesn't do anything for you, there are bigger, better things out there. You're wasting time. I could never stay and stomach all the ignorance, the blind faith, the "we have the one and only truth," etc.

However, I can see why the negatives might outweigh the benefits, and it's really no one else's place to say what you ought to do.

See, this was the opposite of what happened to me. I figured out the church was lying about their history, doctrine and goals but was going to stay because I felt it was a good place to raise children, taught good values and was full of good people. Boy, was I wrong. When it came out that I was questioning the church, people just turned on me. I realized, at least in my ward, that people don't care much about the values and character traits they supposedly teach. They gave the middle finger to everything they claimed to believe in when it came to following the Savior. It got so that I didn't want those people teaching my kids about right and wrong, since they had no sense of right and wrong themselves. Their sole preoccupation was supporting Mormonism and keeping their place in the organization - what Jesus taught be damned.

Since then, I've looked at the effects Mormonism has on peoples' self-esteem, character, life and found there was a lot of truth in the negative influence the religion had on innocent members. There are individual members who overcome the church's bad influence and are wonderful people, as you mentioned. But not because of the church - because they've overcome the church. And I've seen nice children spouting some outrageously judgmental statements without having any idea what they are saying or how bad it is.

At the end of the day though, I think you need to do what is best for you and your family. I'm just telling you about my experience and how it turned out that Mormonism wasn't a good system, despite always being taught it was. But a lot of people find a way to walk a middle path of participating but not believing and if it works for you, and you see no harm to you or your family coming from it ... if you see your family better for it, then it's your call. Good luck to you.

If you need to do good to others I'm sure there are some non-profit organizations that do good in your area that need help from volunteers.

I understand you point of view, moohno, but you gotta remember that this is YOUR life that your living! You shouldnt have to please the people, your life will be a waste if you do that. Do you really want to go the rest of your life feeling lifeless and stuck? There are better opportunities out there! DONT WASTE YOUR LIFE!

I think that staying in the LDS church is a bad idea for anybody. Very little about it that is unique is good and most of what is good about it is not unique. Of course it took a few years for me to come to that conclusion.

Prehaps you would find more empathy for your situation over at NOM http://forum.newordermormon.org/. Thats where I started my journey out. Its is a much more heavily moderated site that offers a softer landing for folks trying to walk the "middle path". Whereas here on RFM most folks are gone from the morg or pretty securely on the path out.

My perspective is that of someone who's never been Mormon and had never met a Mormon till last year.

>>I no longer believe the dogma or doctrine and believe the church (and all organized religion) is merely a platform to exercise control over others and gain wealth for a select few. I don't feel anything during SM when others are crying about something spiritual spoken from the pulpit. I feel dead inside.<<

You don't believe it, you feel dead inside, yet you stay b/c you don't believe there's a better option out there. Have you even looked??!! Until you do, that is a stupid statement to make.

Most of the people in this country manage to lead moral, fulfilling lives without benefit of the LDS church. I'm a Christian and I don't drink, use drugs, cheat on my husband or my taxes, and my charity doesn't stop at the church collection plate on Sunday. This isn't unique to my denomination of Christianity, it's found in people of all faiths or those of no religious persuasion.

Is it more important to maintain a facade you don't believe in so you don't disappoint others and be miserable or live your life according to what YOU believe and risk disappointing your family & friends? You know, you can't go through life without disappointing someone . . .

Probably most of us felt like you do. I was totally planning to do what you are saying. Maybe it works for some people. posting on the "new order mormon" site would be more geared for where you are at right now.

I remember thinking even if the church wasn't true, i wouldn't live my life much differently. I changed, that idea changed. I'm glad it did and feel like I'm a better person. Your view might change too but maybe not. Most everyone on this board has decided to leave so we feel kinda uptight about people suggesting we could live happily back there. Peace if it works for you.

Why stay? It's not true, it's not fun, and it costs a lot in terms of time, money and self-respect.

The LDS Church is a very demanding organization because they pretend to be "the one true church". Therefore, they don't feel a need to give back to their members. The meetings are boring, repetitive and condescending. The people are taught to be extremely judgmental. They spread racism, sexism, and homophobia. Morality is based on arbitrary factors that have nothing to do with developing a good, strong soul.

Like you said, extrachurch service is far more rewarding. Quit giving your time, talents, affections, obedience and money to such an undeserving organization.

I will never understand why someone would sacrifice their life to a money making corporation that will take and take from you even after you're dead. Even worse, you are willing to sacrifice friends, family, and the next generation to them. All in the name of not making any waves or upsetting someone.

To me, that is not a life well lived. It sounds like a life of suppression and depression.

I haven't committed to myself to resign either, but would really like to. Family feelings are the reasons I haven't.

I am always feeling uneasy and unpleasant, a cognitive disonance because I feel I am compromising my ethical and intellectual integrity belonging to it. I want to contribute to society outside the bounds of religious organizations, even though they all certainly do good in many ways.

moohno, I felt the same way once ... now I see it as one of the recovery stages. Couple years later I moved on and now I am officially out. It feels strange now to think that this is how I felt and it was valid for me at that time.

You are correct, there are lots of good people everywhere, even in the church. Not everyone there is a criminal, a psychopath, or a tyran. Those can be found everywhere too. However, at the end of the day the church is not "true" as they preach and I find no reason to be a part of organization that I do not believe in, I don't agree with most of what they teach, and I am not willing to obey and do what the leaders would have me do. I do not have any family ties to LDS so that makes it easier for me.

You should check out NOM new order Mormons. It sounds like what you are looking for. Good luck! I found I could not ignore the harm I feel the church does for the supposed good which can be found elsewhere. I didn't need the church to tell me how to be a good person.

would be to take away our belief in him. Only then could he tell if we are being good out of fear / hope for reward or if it's just because we're good people inside. Atheism is the only true test of character that God could want from us. Just being uncertain isn't good enough. Only if we are sure that there is no onmiscient eye watching our every move can we really find out who we are.

But then again, there are lots of people out there who don't care about motive. The ends justify the means.

I had to read your topic twice, to try understand your point of view. And I did, when I left church I also left everything with that.
Today I live my life more honest with myself but lost all connections I had with my friends, however I understand it waS part of the price to be free.
I wish all good to you.

"I feel dead inside."

Hardly a statement of robust health.

"I'm proud to be associated with them and be able to call them friends."

Would they readily reciprocate if you left the church? If not, are they truly your friends?

If you joined another denomination (or no denomination), they would likely shun you in varying degrees - but why would they feel compelled to do so?

Why is it your job to reinforce their faith? And is it really faith that they exhibit?

moohno Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> While the church is founded on less than truthful "happenings", there are lots of good people in the church trying to do good things. I'm proud to be associated with them and be able to call them friends.

I have a question for you. If you told these good people that you no longer believed, would they still give you the time of day?

My definition of a friend includes someone who accepts me as I am.

There are maybe about 6 million active mormons on the planet. There are well over 7 BILLION people on the planet.

You're telling me that of the 99.92% of the population who AREN'T mormon, not one has found a "better option"?

Please.

"...I put on a happy face for the family and serve as requested, however, I am not getting any fulfillment out of it...."

How is it you can make this statement and still claim that TSCC is 'family values'. Why belong to any organization that uses your family to keep you from living authentically and according to your own conscious?

Yes, there are a lot of good people in TSCC, but are they good because of TSCC or despite it? How would all those 'good' people treat you if you left?

My son is dating a young woman who was raised as a Mormon. She recently told her family that she hasn't been attending church because she is trying to work out what she really believes. She hasn't formally resigned and may not. Her family has completely withdrawn their financial support for her college education as a way of coercing her to return to activity. (Her father actually called her a whore!)

Another friend of my son is about to leave on a mission. He has confided to my son that the only reason he is going is because if he doesn't his parents won't help him with his college tuition.

These two young people are fine individuals who want to make the most of their lives. But the only thing their families care about is: are they attending church.

How's that for family values?

"While the church is founded on less than truthful "happenings", there are lots of good people in the church.". Interesting spin; the Morg PR stance has long been, "The church is perfect; the members are flawed."

The Mormon church does not have a monopoly on good people doing good things.

However, in the final analysis, staying or leaving is nobody's business but your own. From reading this board, I have learned that many people stay in Mormonism after discovering the truth for many different reasons. If this works for you, that's great.