I base my ideas on logic. My wife bases her ideas on feelings. Unreconcilable? I don't think so. She does.

When I realized the LDS church was a sham I had to redefine my moral code. The standards I had been spoon-fed my entire life were no longer reliable, and so I searched wide and delved deep to reconstruct my moral code and what I believe in. This led to some big changes.

My wife was not very happy with these changes. Having been indoctrinated in mormonism her entire life, it has become as much a part of her as the cells in her tissue. Furthermore, because she bases her ideas strictly on feelings, nothing can or will ever dissuade her from the fact that the LDS church is completely and wholly true - at least not unless becomes deprogrammed. However, since she is an adult and in control of her own decisions in life, she will continue to pursue the indoctrination indefinitely. I am an optimist and I believe that anyone can change, but I give her extremely low likelihood. She had even said that she will never under any circumstances stop believing, but that's a tangent that I will not go into here.

As for me, like I said, I base my life on logic. I can see and understand why and how she believes the way she does. From her perspective and approach it makes sense. However, I disagree with it completely. I do not believe in many aspects of her moral code and I have reasons and logic to back up why. However, if I explain them to her, the logic and reason will be dismissed immediately in favor of negative emotions. Part of her lifelong indoctrination has been the development of the idea that anyone who disagrees with her mormon stances is inherently attacking her beliefs, and not of God (thus, Satan). This produces very negative emotions in her, and since logic and reason don't register, these negative emotions take over. This causes her to lock up and become extremely defensive. The fight-or-flight instinct takes over. Either she wins the fight or abandons the problem. One way or another, her emotions must be satisfied.

This is a problem.

Because mormonism is more important to her than I am, and she expressly told me so on more than one occasion, I have been placed in the situation where I must choose a course of action that will lead her to obtain her satisfaction in one of the above ways - fight or flight. In other words, I can either act in a way to cause her to leave me, or I can act in a way to cause her to win moral disagreement questions. I definitely don't want her to leave me, so for two years I have chosen to let her win. My reasoning - she is more important to me than anything else.

For two years I have probed and sought desperately for a third option - a middle ground. Certainly even within indoctrinated mormonism there is space for tolerance of alternate viewpoints. To satisfy my wife's needs and keep her from "flight" I have gone to church every Sunday, prayed with the family, held Family Home Evenings in which my children were taught gospel principles, paid fast offerings, allowed missionaries and home/visiting teachers in the home to share spiritual messages, and allowed LDS artwork to be freely displayed around the home - all without any kind of judgment. I even allow my wife to open up with other people, including bishops behind closed doors, with all of her deepest personal, emotional and spiritual matters, while at the same time not expecting her to open up with me about them. Even though I consider this a major form of cheating, perhaps even the biggest form of cheating possible, I allow it without judgment or criticism because I know it's important to her. I am not here to control her life or dictate how she live according to her moral code. I am here to be as supportive as I can.

However, there has been a problem in all this that I have been unable to reconcile. While I allow her all of these freedoms, I haven't received any in return. Granted, she knows I post on this board and doesn't condemn me for it. However, I am not allowed to post at home where I can spend the time with the family. Judgment will ensue if I do. Additionally, I am not allowed to take my children to another church once a month, or even teach them what I believe.

What? You may be wondering why I wouldn't be allowed to teach my own kids what I believe. First off, this hasn't really been an issue yet. My kids are still too young to really understand my beliefs in any kind of meaningful way. However, as my kids get older and their minds develop, this has always been a looming problem on the horizon for me. My wife recognizes the problem and how unfair it is for me. However, her emotions tell her that it is more imporant that the kids are raised without confusion. Confusion = negative emotion = bad.

Now don't get me wrong. My wife is not that cold. She feels terrible for me too. She has imagined what it would be like to not be able to he honest with her kids, and that thought terrifies her. This has probably been the biggest problem for her to overcome - a battle between the negative emotions of not fully indoctrinating the kids in the church, and the negative emotions of me hiding my true identity. I have seen this struggle in her, and I have gaged my opposition. The church is explicity more important to her than I am, so I know that I will lose. Thus, to keep her from taking flight, I decided to let her win the fight.

That's a pretty good summary of the last two years of my life. I have realized that letting my wife win every battle has led to peace and tranquility in the home. My wife's love for me comes back in full force when I take these approaches, and conflicts and problems in the home become essentially non-existent. The church really only ever was the only thing between us. I don't have to surrender in any non-religious matter. Full submission in religious matters solved all my problems.

But not really.

Living every day of your life according to a moral code that you don't believe in can take its toll. Every prayer, every church visit, every visit of my wife to the bishop, every pro-LDS conversation, every time I denied my authentic self in favor of what my wife wanted I lost a little bit of my self-respect. Still, my wife is more important than even my self-respect, right? I wasn't about to fall into the same trap that she was in, placing religious matters more important than my marriage. Maybe if I showed her that she was #1, she would eventually begin to place me a little higher on her priority list as well, right?

Well, I haven't been perfect in living her standards. I've drank a few cups of coffee at work, for instance. I don't really like it, but I can definitely see its benefits when used in moderation. However, I know that she has a problem with coffee and doesn't want it in our home. I know that telling her that I drink coffee once a month or so will be useless - all it will do will hurt her and cause her to make emotion-based comments that don't register with me. She will view it as a violation of our trust and unspoken agreements we made that we will live the gospel (she puts a lot of emphasis on unspoken agreements, no thanks to our counsellor who validated her on them). I also swear now, though never around her. I don't see anything morally wrong with pronouncing certain syllables except when it comes to the reaction of the listener. Whever there is not a hyper-sensitive listener around, I occasionally take the liberty to let out an expletive. Never at home, though. Never at home.

Part of my new personal moral code also involves artful nudity. I don't think that the human form, particularly female, should be treated as dirty, or the appreciation thereof. In my home this is called pornography, which I think is a loaded broad term for a very wide and diverse field. However, to mormons anything that is nude is pornography, and for my wife pornography is a form of cheating. To me it's not, but because it's so important to her, and to once again keep her from taking the "flight" approach I one day agreed not to look at pornography (note: I don't remember making this specific agreement, but my wife says I did, and I don't claim to have a perfect memory, so I'll allow that she might be telling the truth).

Now, like with coffee and swearing, I have been known to look at some nudes. though not in front of her. A couple of days ago she caught me in what was about a 5-minute session. The fallout was pretty bad. She began to call me untrustworthy, immoral, and ask questions about my "pornography problem."

Now I can understand where she was coming from. If I had indeed made this specific agreement, then I was certainly breaking it. And yes, if she considered it cheating, then she had reason to be troubled. If her approach had been to work with me on how we can mutually respect each other's feelings, we probably would have been able to come to an agreement that would work. However, she came across as very controlling. She wanted to know every detail of my personal life and then dictate to me exactly what I could and could not do without discussion. She told me that we had an unspoken agreement that we would wholly live the gospel, and that it didn't matter if I disagreed with it. If I had any honor as a man whatsoever that I would live up to that agreement - otherwise I was a liar and untrustworthy.

I was feeling quite oppressed at this point. I was willing to work with her on the pornography thing, but I decided that I was no longer going to be completely obedient just for the sake of her satisfaction. I didn't want to lash out or anything, but I had to explain to her exactly how I felt about her methods. In as calm a voice as I could muster, I told her that if I had made any agreements about living the gospel, I felt I had done so under unethically oppressive conditions. I then told her that I felt that she was continuing this oppression by making me live my life according to a moral code and set of standards that I not only didn't believe in, but actually had strong objections towards, all under threat of her taking the kids and leaving me if I didn't. I then referenced Elder Uchtdorf's recent talk about judging others and D&C 121 which talks about how influence should be based on persuasion and long-suffering rather than force and threats.

I wasn't surprised when this angered her and triggered the negative emotion lockup. I tried to begin a list of what I was doing for her spiritually and what she was doing for me spiritually to see if I could exchange my submission to her rule on nudity for some kind of freedom of my own. However, she started padding her list with "I make dinners, I do the laundry, etc..." I told her that I wanted to only talk about spiritual things with her, to which she became speechless trying to think of what she was doing for me. I then saw in her eyes that she realized I was using logic on her, and this flared her negative emotions even more. She stormed out of the room in tears.

At this point I put myself in her shoes and realized that she was probably thinking "my husband is choosing pornography over me." I tried to tell her that this was not the case - that I was willing to compromise and make deals with her. I told her that I considered her opening up with others about personal and emotional matters a form of cheating far worse than looking at naked people, but I was willing to allow her the freedom to live according to her standards, and that my love for her was not based on her beliefs or standards. She could be a nun or a crack-hoe and I'd still stick by her side. I honestly told her that she was the only woman I had ever loved. I then told her that I was willing to come to a compromise on our standards.

I think the only thing she heard was "I love my porn more than you and I won't stop unless you give up the church." Knowing that this was what she was thinking I realized I had two choices. Either I could give in to her completely and place myself back into a fully submissive role, denying my authentic self for the rest of my life, or I could take a firm stand in hopes of salvaging at least a tiny portion of my humanity. The first would guarantee the continuation of my marriage, and the second would most likely lead to her taking the kids and moving away from me forever.

I'm at work now, and I don't know if my wife will be there when I go home. I hope she is, but I'm not terribly optimistic about it. I know that, because my family is all TBM, they will side with her and all probably say that I left my wife because of porn. They will probably also blame me for ruining her life and the life of my kids. They will ignore every aspect of our marriage and whittle away everything besides porn, because that's what they have been trained to do. If they ask me how I could be so shallow, I will respond "I don't think the appreciation of nudity is so important - I think that intolerance for the appreciation of any degree of nudity is dangerous, and that the display and appreciation of nudity is not inherently bad or evil. However, my wife would rather leave me (as opposed to me leaving her) than show any form of tolerance towards this and many other moral viewpoints that are contrary to her own, despite the fact that I made great strides in showing tolernace to her many viewpoints. I love her, and if she feels she can't be happy with me for who I am and what I believe, then I respect her decision to leave. It's not my intent to control her life or make her feel that she needs to do something she's not comfortable with. She's a grown woman and can make her own decisions."

And they will probably respond "so you left her because you wanted porn?"

My Suggs:
retreat to the Golden Rule as your guideline.

Watching Porn is Fantasy; I don't believe any adult 'needs' porn or fantasy.

Your wife is real, she is there (with you).

See if an agreement NOT to discuss religion works.

Love should be the basis for relationships, not church.

"retreat to the Golden Rule as your guideline."
I think I outlined this pretty clearly. I do everything for her that I want her to do for me, and then some. I give her full freedom in living her life, and the golden rule doesn't extend to include 'let others do unto you whatever they want to do.'

"Watching Porn is Fantasy; I don't believe any adult 'needs' porn or fantasy."
Neither do I. I thought I made that clear, especially in the second-to-last paragraph, but I guess I didn't.

"Your wife is real, she is there (with you)."
Not if she leaves.

"See if an agreement NOT to discuss religion works."
I thought I was clear about that too. I'm pretty sure I said I tried that for two years. Her demands don't include just talking about religion, but actually living it 100% regardless of belief in it. Anything less brings on fight-or-flight. However, I can have a good marriage if I live it fully and don't talk about it, while at the same time living against my personal moral code. Why do I feel like I'm repeating myself?

"Love should be the basis for relationships, not church."
And that's how it is on my part, which is why leaving her is the last thing I could imagine doing right now. I question whether she feels the same way, though.

Reading this, I can't even understand why you would want to stay under these conditions. You only get one life to live, don't live it this way!

Suppressing who you are long-term is not a viable path to happiness. A marriage is a partnership where each spouse's opinions have equal weight. Her lack of respect for you is a serious problem and cannot be tolerated.

You may want to fill your wife in on the facts of divorce. Let her know that you will insist on standard visitation rights (one night a week, every other weekend) where you will take the kids to other churches and expose them to dreaded "logic" where she is unable to interfere. She may think that the court will order you to raise kids Mormon---they won't. Courts stay out of religion. (Except some stupid judges, but it's getting better.)

Also inform her that divorced, a standard agreement is that no ordinances will be performed unless both parents consent. That means that unless you agree, the kids cannot be baptized, ordained, etc. (Granted, this is a weak position since if it's really what the kids want and you don't go with it it'll cause problems, but she may not realize that.)

If she is a stay-at-home mom she may also be forced to find a job, taking away from her time with the kids, until/unless she finds another sucker to finance her lifestyle.

Knowing all of this, can't she meet you half-way?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/20/2012 01:38PM by Xyandro.

As far as the kids are concerned, this is actually something I myself have been debating; I'm in the process of getting divorced (I'm gay), and have talked with my counselor, a child therapist and researched the likely impact on kids.

Kids have a tendency to try to mirror their parent's relationship. In my case, the example I'd be giving in staying married would be a distant relationship where there's a lot of resentment, frustration, and loneliness. I love my wife, but there's a fundamental disconnect between gay/straight that get much worse over time. We hope to remain good friends, which helps the kids dramatically.

In your case, it seems your wife offers you only conditional love, and the conditions are harsh. Would you really want your kids to follow this example?

Also of concern are your children's ages. It sounds like they're fairly young now. I understand they adjust to divorce easiest before age 8. Between ages 8-16 it's a really hard transition.

I know divorce is really hard on children, but a dysfunctional family is really hard too. Also, if you can't find real happiness in your life, what kind of parent will you truly be? If your wife is really as inflexible as you're saying it's going to be really hard to make this work.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/20/2012 01:47PM by kimball.

That's just really, really sad.
I think it might be in your best interest to give in on this issue. Not looking at nudity because your wife objects to it is certainly logical. On the other hand, you've been sacrificing way too much of yourself in so many other areas. Even if you have to go through all the motions for your wife, you should at least be able to be honest about what you believe and feel, not having to hide your unbelief. If you can follow the Mormon rules while always reminding your wife, "I'm doing this for you because I love you, even though I don't believe it", I would think that things would get better over time. She's not going to respect you unless you respect yourself, and you can't respect yourself if you aren't allowed to express your own views.

It certainly is logical, I agree. However, it would also be logical for her to stop taking the kids to church because that's important to me. I could agree on this issue completely, but she's never going to give me anything in return. After two years I've noticed the trend is that as I give in to her requirements, she gets deeper and deeper into the control habit, not the other way around. I think it's because she sees that it's working, and thus has a righteous feeling of success. Even though porn is of little significance to me, appartenly it's important enough to her to maybe give me some leeway.

Porn isn't your bargaining chip here, and I think you'd be ill-advised to use it that way. Your bargaining chip is that you are a person who deserved to be respected.

Asking to not take the kids to church at all is also unacceptable; it shows for her the same lack of respect she's showing for you. A compromise would be alternating churches or something like that.

I offered taking the kids to another church once a month a little while back. She called me a liar - that I was going back on my agreement that I would let her raise the kids mormon. I told her that they still would be mormon 3 weeks a month, which means primarily mormon, and I just wanted to broaden their exposure to religion. Within ten minutes she was threatening me with divorce. Believe me, compromise is not an option - especially when it comes to the kids.

And keep in mind I'm an atheist - so even once a month at other churches would be a stretch for me.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/20/2012 03:02PM by kimball.

1) "Still, my wife is more important than even my self-respect, right?" NO, she is not. If you have no self-respect (self-love), how can you profess respect or love for another?

2) You are caught in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenario. There is no way to "win" anything here, least of all self-respect, but more importantly the respect of this person who, by your own admission, only "loves" you when you keep your mouth shut and do whatever she demands of you. Clue phone: that isn't love, that is love-slavery.

3) PORN is not the issue, and you know it. So does she. CONTROL is the issue. Insist on the proper usage of terminology or you will lose the argument every time.

4) It really looks like you have bent over backward to please this person. If she can't come to her senses w.r.t. your dedication, then that is ultimately her problem, not yours.

Good luck.

I wonder if her threats to leave are idle and just a last ditch effort to try to control you and get you back to being peter priesthood.

If she gives you a threat/ultimatium, and if you compromise, does she go out and find the next hurdle for you to jump over? Is she just looking for reasons you're not good enough?

If she's that controlling, nothing you can do will fix this marriage in even a few years. It would be a grueling decade before you have good progress. It's not worth it.

So my advice: Determine if she is just being controlling, or if she is willing to compromise in the spirit of love.

PS that uchtdorf reading was a little hypocritical--you just stated that felt the system was unethical and wrong, but then you used it on her. That's a bit passive agressive. Perhaps you should just say what you mean rather than have shills in her church (which you find appalling) do it.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/20/2012 02:00PM by Jesus Smith.

I don't think it was hypocritical. All I said to her was that I felt that the conditions upon which I made agreements were unethical and wrong. She knows that I don't have much respect for the church implicitly. However, I did tell her that I had respect for Uctdorf and his message. I would have said the same thing in my own words, but I felt using Uchtdorf might give us a common ground. Maybe it was passive-agressive, though.

Ok, well, if in the past you had said you respected Uchtdorf, that would be different. I didn't know that. So my bad.


BTW, I nearly passed through a similar path with an increasingly controlling TBM wife. I too am an artist, and had done both landscape and surreal human forms (including nudes--mostly after the separation). My ex did not really know I doubted about the church--I kept it to myself until the day I left. She threatened to divorce me for a couple of years over everything I did. Each time I compromised she raised the stakes. I finally called her bluff. I told her I was ready to sign the divorce papers. She backpedaled so fast I thought gravity had inverted. She did a 180 and said that getting a divorce would be disastrous.

We tried a few more months to resolve it, but at that point, the idea of divorced seeded and triggered me to ultimately move out and file myself.

I've been happy happy happy I did ever since. My kids are mostly out too, because she is so controlling, they feel the need to flee both the church and her.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/20/2012 02:13PM by Jesus Smith.

One thing that makes this situation really difficult is that you really *DID* agree to what she wants. The problem comes in when you realize you've been deceived.

Imagine you sign a business contract in good faith only to find out the other party is cheating you. Do you keep the terms of the contract anyway, to keep your integrity? NO! You sue them.

It's hard that you made the commitments to her while being lied to by a third party. If she can't see how that might change your position, though, she truly has no empathy.

It's next to impossible to live in anything resembling a middle ground with Mormonism.
The cult won't let you.

A lot of these foolish TBM women have NO idea what life will be like for them as a divorcee in the church they sacrificed everything for.

Try reasoning with her and next call her bluff. The person who is willing and able to walk away from a deal is usually in the driver's seat.
BUT unfortunately, Mo women have a real knack for self-sacrifice and financial self-destruction.

The last 8 months of my marriage before the separation were ridiculous. It wasn't until after I left that it became clear exactly how ridiculous.

Good luck to you.

F perspective:
As TBM spouse, porn was very evil. When I discovered its use I was in despair. I thought my marriage was over, felt completely betrayed, felt totally cheated on. Unlike your wife, I was only dealing with my husband "falling down" on this count only, not on general disbelief in TSSC. Porn alone was almost more than I could handle. I can't explain how visceral it felt. Was I not good enough? Not attractive enough? Why would he choose the unreal? Did I not satisfy him?

All these feelings along with the general idea that sex/porn/etc is the very root of evil are so much to handle, especially when coupled with all the other "denials of the faith." My husband tried to explain that the porn meant nothing to him, I was meaningful, why men masturbate, how porn helps, the real thing with a real loving woman is so much better.... For a long time I could not hear any of it. It was meaningless. He had betrayed me and dealt my self-esteem a low blow.

It took a loooong time for me to get over the personal insult and hurt and be able to listen to him and try to understand what he was trying to express. I get some of it. It has helped that we both have left TSSC, that we communicate much more honestly about sex with one another, that I got over some of my insecurities. One thing that helped me understand were some of the readings here:

http://www.i4m.com/think/sexuality/

I don't know if she can read some of the masturbation stuff and hear it past the voice of the GA's. Or the sexuality after mo-ism post.

Another thing my husband suggested I think about - and it helped me eventually - is that I am not above to reading novels with some "romantic" content, or watching chick flicks that make me feel all lovey or what not. If she (being TBM) reads a Nicholas Sparks book or watches a movie (romantic, but clean) and feels the romance, and wants to feel it with you, it is kind of like "porn for righteous girls". No, there are no vulgar visuals and the description is not from the pages of Hustler, but it sparks similar feelings. I just think women in general have a lot more emotion tied to sex and for guys it is a lot more biological. Other stuff that helped me was him showing me in daily life that I was meaningful, loved, attractive....

I still have some issues with porn - more with trying to understand it on some gamut ranging from women being abused/exploited by men to women abusing men through exerting their power to lead men by their balls. Despite that, I do find that bodies can be beautiful and pleasing to look at.

You are on a rough road. I feel for you both. This was a pretty sucky time for both my husband and I.

I'd never thought of that before, but I think you've hit the nail on the head. Women, even married ones, watch romantic movies all the time and don't feel that it is cheating in the slightest bit, even though they are emotionally involving themselves in other people's relationships (albeit on a TV screen). It doesn't reduce their love for their husband or boyfriend at all, and probably even helps. If the husband/boyfriend is really self-conscious about his emotional connection with her, then he might experience feelings of inadequacy or jealousy that the men on the screen mean more to her than he does. However, men usually don't think that way.

The church has even put articles out about romance novels being a no no.

http://www.lds.org/ensign/2003/07/addicted-to-romance-novels?lang=eng

Whenever some brings up the “evils” of porn, I always think of a favorite episode of the BBC comedy “Coupling”. In this episode the character Steve is questioned by a visiting dinner guest about “how” he could ever like a film entitled “Lesbian Spank Inferno” where upon Steve gives the following defense of the whole male heterosexual psyche…….

“Oh, because it's got naked women in it!

Look, I like naked women! I'm a bloke! I'm supposed to like them! We're born like that. We like naked women as soon as we're pulled out of one. Halfway down the birth canal we're already enjoying the view.

Look, it's the four pillars of the male heterosexual psyche. We like: naked women, stockings, lesbians, and Sean Connery best as James Bond. Because that is what being a bloke is. And if you don't like it, darling, join a film collective.

I want to spend the rest of my life with the woman at the end of the table here. But that does not stop me wanting to see several thousand more naked bottoms before I die. Because that's what being a bloke is.

When Man invented fire, he didn't say "Hey, let's cook!" He said: "Great! Now we can see naked bottoms in the dark!" As soon as Caxton invented the printing press we were using it to make pictures of - hey! - naked bottoms. We've turned the Internet into an enormous international database of... naked bottoms.

So, you see, the story of male achievement through the ages, feeble though it may have been, has been the story of our struggle to get a better look at your bottoms. Frankly, girls, I'm not so sure how insulted you really ought to be.”

Many wives think their husband viewing porn means he isn't satisfied with her. It is viewed by many as a direct affront, and insult i.e. If she were pretty enough, he wouldn't be looking at others. Ironic in a Mormon context for sure, but nonetheless a modern Mormon woman doesn't think in polygamist terms.

This is a golden rule issue: Would you want her to gawk at other men?

Better than the golden rule is a modification: "Do unto others as they would have you do unto them." Don't think about what you want, but rather what the other person wants. She should be willing to do the same thing, but obviously isn't at that stage.

I think some things are worth giving up for the love of another person, such as: your porn, drinking alcohol, coffee. These are three silly things whether you want them or don't. IMO not worth losing a family over.

For two years I agreed with you, and I may go back to agreeing with you in the future. Give-give-give without any hope or reasonable expectation to receive anything in return. It's definitely a philosophy that works.

I agree that those things aren't worth losing my family over. No, if she gawked at men that wouldn't damage my love for her either. Like I said, she could be a crack-hoe or a nun, I wouldn't care. However, in this case, for her those ARE things worth losing her family over. Thus, she is the one holding the reigns and forcing me to make all the changes. I hold no influence and offer no incentive for her to ever change, because I accept her unconditionally. If I live the golden rule, or even the modified golden rule, I will be supporting her dominance, fueling it and validating it. I would have my family, though, it's true. However, I will be living a powerless existence, and I'm not convinced that's morally right.

I'm sorry you're going through this. I felt very frustrated reading through your whole post and realized it was because you were holding up a mirror for me. It was eye-opening for me to see the similarities in my own marriage and discover how lop-sided things are, where I view myself as being so accomodating and respectful of her beliefs yet don't sense any of that behavior coming back in my direction. I'm going to be thinking about this for awhile.

"otherwise I was a liar and untrustworthy"

She condems you for - what she interprets - being a liar and untrustworthy? And she accepts the lies spewed out daily by LDS Corp - based on her feelings? Hypocrite.

WCG, one answer might be: While he could be happier doing what he wants and she would realize she can't escalate the threats because he'll be happy on his own, there is one issue: he will always love his children and she knows they are the one thing she can always use against him. They will be pawns, they will not have freedom while they're together.

If he stays, she will try to turn them against him. If he leaves, he can be a dad free of her control and they can choose to live how they want when with him.

The last line I wrote is the point: If he leaves, he can be a dad free of her control and they can choose to live how they want when with him.

Whether or not she tries, he won't have to share a home with her while she does it. Kids will get to know him free of her meddling during his time.

For me, that was a godsend. Others mileage may vary.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/20/2012 03:13PM by Jesus Smith.

Unreconcilable, if your situation is as you describe, is the word.
Another would be escalation, on her part.

Where do you see yourself in five years?
In ten?

This is the way you want to spend the rest of your entire life?

It's a tough decision to make, but that was the determining factor & most important question I asked myself when I was going through a divorce & the answer was HELL NO!

Your wife may be very important to you, but is the life you're being forced to live less important?

Does whatever satisfaction you derive out of living with her override all the negatives?

Facing a divorce is scary, but you make up your mind that you deserve better, you'll HAVE better, you bite the bullet, you endure a LIMITED, not perpetual, period of unpleasantness, and then you start entering the phase where the sun shines again.

If you think you can go on the way you're currently living, subordinating your existance & happiness to her, then stay.
If not, get out. It's toxic & it'll only get worse.

A lot of posters mention the idea of control. I can't comment on whether or not she is trying to "control" you with her "demands". I am not close enough to the situation or the players. I assume when you married you were both TBM's to some extent. She is playing from one rulebook and you are playing from another. I agree that it sounds like you have tried to be reasonable and accommodating. In her defense, her rulebook does no allow for that. It is a "my way or the highway" kind of book. So I am just not sure if the control is nasty manipulation, or just the way she understands to play the game.

Plus, IMO, the porn just dished a big dose of betrayal and personal hurt that goes beyond the Morg saying it is "evil". She is trying to solve her problems using the rulebook she bought into and still desperately hopes that somewhere you still buy into. Porn is the problem that is in your face right now, but it all boils down to so much more. I think you both have to go back together and define what marriage is - it is no longer the eternal fairy tale - what it means to each of you, what the "rules" are. Can you both survive with this new definition? Can you both play by the "rules"? Can you continue to negotiate and grow?

It's definitely just the way she understands to play the game. Still, isn't that how it is with everyone who is controlling?

I guess I'm not being real clear. From your first post it pretty much sounds like she is only willing to play from the LDS book of rules. I was trying to differentiate from comments of other posters as to whether she plays by these rules as a manipulative witch or because she is earnestly trying to "choose the right". If it all gets put on the table can she and will she draft a new rule book with you or is it all over. If she is a manipulative witch, you probably don't even need to put it on the table, you already know the answer. If she at all can get her head out of the LDS church's butt there might be some hope if you put it all out there for her. (I'd like to think that I was more in this category than the former.) Like others I think you have to stop trying to be the good guy and both of you have to face it head on, one way or the other.

I wish for your sake we could just shake the LDS BS right out of her.

So sorry this is happening to you. It really sucks!

Porn is the main cult trigger these days. I don't think she can be talked to while she is in porn mode.

I don't have any good advice. My marriage sucked for years until we finally, finally were able to leave mormonism and drop the guilt trips on each other.

Life is wonderful, life is good, living in the narrow mormon world of fear and suspicion is not.

Oh what the previous poster said worked on my wife too--she loves romance novels. And how is that diff dear?

You are in for a rough ride. We care and want to hear about your progress.

I'm afraid the party is over, so to speak. Your wife is controlling you in ways that are unacceptable and irreconcilable. You will only prolong the inevitable by staying with her.

I say this and I am in the same boat as you, so I am not being flip or trivial here.

You need to ask yourself “are your needs being met considering the way the relationship is currently structured and running?” Can you envision yourself being happy living this way for the next 10, 20 or 30 plus years? If not then it’s time to renegotiate the marriage with the wife. I’d suggest marriage counseling – preferably non-Mormon to work out the issues that exist between the two of you and the root of those issues are not porn and not religion.

If you can’t come to some compromised middle ground regarding your relationship that you both can live peaceable with, well then there are other options.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/20/2012 03:18PM by davesnothere.

Stories like this make my heart hurt. So sorry you're going through this.

Kimball,

I really feel for you and have had a lot of similar experiences. You also seem to have taken a very good approach to a difficult situation. I totally get and agree with what you are saying about not continuing to live a life that is not inline with your beliefs - fortunately my wife has taken a different tact than yours and agrees it would be silly for me to live something I don't believe - but we have our own set of challenges in other areas. It needs to change and can't be sustained in the long run.

What I question a little is your timing. Just because this is now completely clear to you does not necessarily mean it is the right time to dig in. Your wife is feeling very threatened and very vulnerable, etc. right now with how she feels about "porn".

So for you to dig in right now on where things need to go long term for things to work for you might not be the best timing. If you want to try to save your marriage you may need to "play the game" a little longer until things get back to some reasonable state.

Also, I know it's hard to tell the whole story in a blurb on the internet, but you seem to be over polarizing you being logical and your wife being emotional. I don't doubt that you both lean strongly those ways, but you are sometimes emotional and your wife is sometimes logical. However if your wife is feeling stressed, yes she is going to go strongly into home base of emotional.

Reading this reminds of what I went through under very similar circumstances several years ago.

I'll be honest, I did view porn.

What I learned after getting a divorce and having several relationships afterwords, the porn was a manifestation of a deeper problem. The problem is not being accepted, not being loved for who you are, being a 5th priority.

It took several years to get my feet on the ground and some wonderful relationships to help find myself, but my desire for porn has been pratically non existent, even when I was between relationships. It makes all of the difference to be in a relationship with someone who actually cares for you and being confident with yourself as well.

Only you can decide if permanently play second fiddle to the Mormon Cult is an acceptable way to live. If I had a wife like yours, I would be seriously looking for a divorce attorney and proceeding with divorce ASAP. My opinion is that life is way too short to be putting up with all the BS and lack of respect that your wife is constantly dishing out to you.

You are being treated like a little child who must obey a plethora of petty rules, as dictated by your irrational lemming wife. Her insistence on raising the kids as Mormons is an absolute deal breaker. That just proliferates all the problems that Mormonism causes into the next generation. I think that your kids deserve far better treatment from you. They deserve to be rescued from the [expletive] Mormon Cult.

Speaking from experience, I know that going through a divorce is a difficult, painful time. But when it is over then life really becomes worth living. I never questioned the wisdom of getting my divorce from a wife whose first priority and love was her church.