In a now-closed thread, I can understand how someone could take my unsolicited advice and see it as telling people what to do. Maybe I just assume that people know me around here enough to understand that I don't believe there is a right way of leaving the church, The church is very much a one-size-fits-all organization, and I've learned that we all take different paths, and it's not my place to suggest that "my way" is better than any others.

I just need to remember that my experience may not always be useful to other people here. I've been where a lot of you are, and there are certain pitfalls that can be avoided. But my advice hasn't been asked for, and I sure as hell wouldn't say my way is best.

I think there's a good portion of us on this board who bristle at any hint of being told what to do anymore. Seems we've had enough of that kind of thing.

Trying to look past my initial reaction I see where you're coming from. It would be nice to live in a world where people cared about those around them and were always nice - or at least nice by default and only mean when pushed beyond a reasonable point.

I still can't get around the whole DCP thing though. When I first came to this board I was a bit put off and shocked at the personal attacks made againts DCP. I had never met him or had anything to do with him so I thought I should give him the bennefit of the doubt. That lasted a while, but after reading some of his stuff and watching vids and especially after reading his message board postings I concluded that he is a mean spirited, arrogant, bully of a man.

I'd still rather be nice than mean if I can help it, but I refuse to live my life or post on this board according to what DCP would find acceptable.

Maybe I'm still missing your point Runtu. If that's the case lets get a coffe at Starbucks on Sunday and we can discuss it in deapth. I'll buy.

Stunted.

My point was simple: I don't think acting like Daniel Peterson is a healthy thing for anyone to do.

If you want to act like that, be my guest, but I'm not going to apologize for saying what I think.

In reality I'm sure I'll still say nasty things about mormons and the mormon culture in general. I do try to be specific in most cases but there are a lot of things, nasty and unpleasant things that do apply to the church in general. Here's a short list:

Temple exclusions for weddings

repeated public teachings about apostates being sinners or just too lazy to live the gospel

Treatment of Gays.

Racism

Sexism

Im my opinion these are areas where you kind of have to lump the whole church together because they are institutionalized and doctrinal.

At least I was specific about DCP being an arrogant bully. Do I get partial credit for that?

If you have been around me at all, you know I have often said nasty things about Mormonism, including all the things you mentioned.

Fuck, I should never have started the thread.

Many of us react in predictable ways. These threads make a great example. You post an idea and wham! some of us jump all over it. You try to point out how we missed the point but we don't want any of that, we've already constructed emotional and logical responses to what we thought you were saying so don't try to derail us...... Or so it seems to me.

This seems to run parallel with how I see active TBMs respond when I try to discuss the reasons why I left the church. Before I get the first sentence out they have already constructed their rebuttal so my second and third sentences don't even get heard.

So here I sit realizing maybe I do exactly the same thing and don't even realize it. Gives me pause. What other reactions/behaviors do I exhibit beneath the conscious level?

It doesn't much matter. The damage has been done, and whatever point I was trying to make has been lost in my poor communication.

Many of us got the point. A few vocal people getting excited doesn't mean you blew it completely.

"Contention is of the Devil" is one of the hardest Mormon Memes for me to let go of.

Yep. It's really weird how we were taught that only certain emotions were acceptable. It's OK to get weepy in sacrament meeting, but you can't ever be angry or contentious.

I am sorry things I said pissed some people off. I'm not upset at the response, as it was my fault.

Early on in my apostasy, I had Mormons tell me that the right way to leave was to never talk about the church again, to just pretend it hadn't happened and walk away. I think I would have ended up in the psych ward longer than 3 days had I followed that advice.

I don't like being told what to do, either, but I can't for the life of me see how suggesting that we don't do what the apologists do to us is telling people what to do.

Using terms like: "we must" sort of takes it out of the category of suggestion into the category of something we MUST DO.

I don't understand how you can expect people to take telling that the "must" do something as if it were a suggestion.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/22/2012 02:48PM by MJ.

Then it was an unfortunate use of words. I do not believe there is a right way to leave the church. But I do believe doing what Peterson did in his essay is wrong. Sue me. :)

And your dictating of what "we must" do.

Then your wondering why you would expect people to react badly to your "suggestion" when it was not worded as a suggestion.

All I can say is that it wasn't intended as what you "must" do, and I am sorry for writing it that way. I would never "dictate" to anyone what to do.

I am convinced that acting like Dan Peterson is not healthy. That's all I meant to say.

In using "we" you are clearly defining "us" as a group and you are holding "us" accountable for a particular behavior, how is that different from Peterson?

It was a mistake, for which I am sorry. I do believe it's wrong to define individuals by the worst of the institution they belong to.

As for what Peterson said, I am not saying all ex-Mormons are alike. I should not have presumed to speak for anyone but myself, and again I apologize. From my experience on this board, a lot of us do share common experiences, such as anger, hurt, betrayal, and shunning. But no, not everyone does.

I put my foot in my mouth, and I apologize.

What I am trying to communicate to you has NOTHING TO DO WITH WHAT PETERSON ACTUALLY said.

What YOU did was to lump US together and lecture US about a behavior as if ALL of US engaged in that behavior.

Despite trying to get you to understand that what you did was the same as what you are being critical about, I have yet to get a sense that you actually understand it.

So you understand that what you did was the same as what you have been critical about, yes or no?

I understand completely. My OP sounded like I was saying all or most people here are angry, etc., and that everyone must behave a certain way. I don't believe that. Never have in, what, 7 years of hanging out here. What works for some people does not work for others.

Sometimes I think tone is not communicated in writing, as the OP was not meant as a lecture or a blanket condemnation of anyone. I can be a dick sometimes, but I try very hard not to treat people the way I seemed to be in the OP. Again, I'm sorry.

I've stuck around this board because I have felt like I could be helpful to people who are going through what I did. I may be deluding myself. I don't want to cause any harm to anyone.

I find what you have to say helpful. MJ really enjoys arguing.

I enjoy arguing with you when the topic interests me. I just don't let it upset me personally because I know your MO

And added nothing to the discussion and only served to discredit me personally.

Rather rude in my book.

I admit it. I think most people would be better served not treating others as stereotypes. If saying so makes me a lecturing asshole, so be it.

And you still can't seem to grasp that there are legitimate reasons for lumping people together to be critical about them.

I lump all people that support hate groups together in order to be critical of there supporting the preaching of hate.

I consider the LDS as an institution a hate group. So I am critical of everyone that supports that hate group, that would be virtually ever Mormon.

I don't see it that way. If I meet a Mormon, I will usually assume that they are against same-sex marriage and think that I'm a deviant pervert because of my sexual orientation. But I'm often pleasantly surprised to be wrong about that assumption.

The church picked a fight with same-sex marriage, and I'm happy to criticize them as an institution for doing so. But I am not going to go up to a Mormon and say, "You're a homophobe who thinks my existence is blasphemous."

I talked about their SUPPORT of an INSTITUTION that spread hate. I am being critical of them SUPPORTING THAT INSTITUTION.

It has nothing to do with their personal views on ANYTHING. IT has to do with the single action of supporting a hate group.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/22/2012 03:43PM by MJ.

Then I don't know what the hell we're arguing about. If you support an institution, then, yes, you are responsible in some way for what that institution does, and your support for it is fair gam. That's not what I was talking about.

I'm reminded of a guy I know who was vehemently opposed to Prop. 8. But his problem was that he was a bishop in California and was expected to haul his ward members in to twist their arms and get them to donate. He was also told he needed to be an example, so he donated $5000 to the Yes on 8 campaign.

That is totally fucked up and to me is an example of how the LDS church expects people to check their conscience and their reason at the door. That guy deserves all the criticism he gets. But other Mormons I know volunteered on the No on 8 campaign and were mortified by what the church did. Do they bear some responsibility for sustaining the church? Sure, but I don't expect people to reject everything they believe because they disagree on certain aspects of the belief. And I don't think it's fair to treat the fucked-up bishop the same way I treat those who risked church discipline to stand up and say the church was wrong.

perhaps we were arguing over your attempts to say I was some how wrong in making that point.


Gezzzz.

Maybe I'm slow on the uptake, but I couldn't figure out why you were so adamantly opposed to what I was saying, as in the end I am pretty sure we agree. Oh, well.

There are a few Mormons who support same sex marriage. I even know a couple.

Yeah, my response was lost in the internets. There isn't one way to respond or leave. And as someone who's been around for awhile, there are many people who may start out venting (As Mr. Peterson observes). But after awhile, many former mormons figure out that life is pretty sweet outside of mormonism (I have). Not that anyone has to follow a path. There's just a point where one realizes that things like funeral potatoes aren't going to change.

But maybe things like political action against gay marriage will...who knows. Many things have changed.

The culture and personality of the forum is what it is. I've realized trying to change that is futile. So I let it be what it is and participate the way I want to and work within the confines of what it is.

Hell, I'm not trying to change the culture. I was just thinking this morning about how it was a big step for me to stop stereotyping Mormons. Unfortunately, I committed my thoughts to writing, and it went downhill from there.

This place is perfect for venting, for getting the anger and hurt out. I've certainly done my share. Personally, I think the MDD apologetics board is far angrier and more viscerally hateful than anyone on this board.

Runtu, you explained what you meant, admitted you expressed it poorly and even apologized. If anyone is still upset, it is really their problem. I would forget it. Some people like to argue and must have the last word. Don't worry about it.You are not going to get them to understand because they cannot see the points of others.

It doesn't much matter. I know what I meant. :-)

I agree and you will not win with MJ. I can tell you that from experience. I doubt he even read your explanation.

I've just now read both threads.
I understand the bristling at word choice. I also see numerous apologies from runtu for unfortunate word choice.

The ones we should bristle at will never apologise for word choice, like to dictate behaviors as appropriate or not in the course of recovery, and greet any disagreement with accusations of bullying. This is not runtu in the slightest.

:)

Yeah, right now I am in a lot of pain, seeing how Mormonism has negativey affected my family. And we are supposed to stay silent about it and accept their trite "it is ony the members," when their church still teaches that hogwash as doctrine?

fkrgtojlrewaig;ndskj;gjaesitoarq3=-2408t5iur'kd;,n;kjaiuoo!!!!!!!!!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/22/2012 03:40PM by me.

I don't think anyone has ever successfully dealt with leaving Mormonism by remaining silent. Over on the MDD board, the board founder, Juliann, kept telling me I needed to shut up and let go, lest I become a bitter "angry exie." What I learned from that is that no one can tell me how to feel or think or act. I have to do what is right for me.

Yeah, I know my OP seemed to be suggesting the opposite. I did not intend that.