Last night I spoke with my TBM sister. She's one of those Clydesdale mormons that does everything without questioning. She asked me point blank if I still believe in Jesus as the savior and son of god. I told her no, but that I felt many of the teachings attributed to Jesus were valuable. We discussed the golden rule and charity.

Then I asked her a question: Does she think that a loving gay couple who are charitable are more or less likely than an wealthy LDS couple who pay tithing but do no charity to get into the celestial kingdom?

She answered that she wasn’t sure, but that she knew many LDS who are greedy even if temple worthy and it bothered her. She felt that a giving gay couple would stand a better chance before god than a greedy LDS sealed couple. This is progress for her.

I told her that I’d always seen her as the kind of parent that would sacrifice much of her personal happiness for her children’s happiness. She agreed that she strived for that.

Then I asked: If one of your children came home with a partner and told you she was gay and very happy in life with living her authenticity, how would you feel, Sis?

Her: Well, I wouldn’t hate her for it.

Me: Why is hate the first thought when reflecting on how you would react to a gay child?

Her: I don't mean hate. I mean that I would have reservations. Because it would still be hard to know that they do not live god’s commandments.

Me: I’ve seen that you would give almost any of your own happiness for your children’s happiness. Wouldn’t you also sacrifice in this case for your child if she were truly happy in a same-sex relationship?

Her: I think so; I would support it, for her happiness, but I would be sad because she wouldn’t make it to the highest kingdom.

Me: Why not? She’s a charitable, caring, loving and giving person. Surely god would recognize that and not hold against her who she chooses to love with all her heart.

Her: That’s not the way it works. God requires certain ordinances.

Me: So you’re saying that if two persons are equally loving, equally giving, selfless and helpful...Except one of these two spent ten minutes on an altar saying “Yes” to some words, while the other spent that ten minutes loving someone through service, God would say to the un-altar’ed person, “sorry, you didn’t exercise this trivial moment at the altar. You can’t enter heaven.” That’s the god you worship?

She hung up.

Did I go too far?

No you didn't go too far, you said something she honestly needed to hear.

Weather or not she takes the advise you just gave, is up to her.

You did great.

Now she has to think and that is something the LDS church does not want her to do.

a god who is a dick.

And if he's not a dick, he'll forgive you anyway.

and if there's no god, it's all moot anyway.

but you have to back from the only option being that you
have to worship a god who's a dick.

sounds like you're making baby steps with sis.

Nope.

She hung up when she became uncomfortable after she realized her thinking processes were at work.

The Church doesn’t encourage individual thinking and reasoning and in fact works tirelessly to suppress it at every turn.

The Church tells its members what to think and believe and uses fear to scare them away from unapproved sources of information.

Primary rule of controlling people require strict obedience and control and limit access to information.

It's obvious you had a cordial and fruitful discussion with your sister. In the end she hung up on you so according to her you went to far. I think you could have prolonged the discussion by not adding 'that's the god you worship' in the end. It's true but you had her almost there anyway, she could have figured it out. Now she likely got defensive instead.

No...it was a good thoughtful discussion.

She was going along with it and answering honestly.

Her hanging up on you was rude and childish and she went too far in expressing her emotions in a negative way.

She could have said that "This is becoming uncomfortable," or "I don't like the way this conversation is going," or "let's change this subject for now," or "I feel like you are attacking me/my church/beliefs," instead of hanging up. She could have even said, "I am hanging up now, good bye," before she clicked off.

From the conversation you posted, her reaction in hanging up was way out of line.

We're supposed to be grown ups. Grown ups just don't hang up on each other during a conversation. Saying she was going to end the call would have been much better.

She owes you an apology for hanging up. Don't let her make you out to be the bad guy in the conversation there, because you weren't.

family first can't log in Wrote:
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> She could have said that "This is becoming
> uncomfortable," or "I don't like the way this
> conversation is going," or "let's change this
> subject for now," or "I feel like you are
> attacking me/my church/beliefs," instead of
> hanging up. She could have even said, "I am
> hanging up now, good bye," before she clicked
> off.

I think that is a maturity that isn't always easy to get from Mormons. They've been conditioned to run away whenever they feel satan is present.

Also, I think that even if the sister had expressed this, it wouldn't mean the conversation went too far for most people. She could feel uncomfortable about something without the discussion being wrong or hostile.

On the other hand if the debate was hostile, even if the topic was agreeable, the comfort could be gone.

It's impossible to know what the emotional tone of the conversation was by reading this.

My approach in such a discussion would not be to make it personal about your sister and her children - that feels like an attack. I talk about how I feel about it and why it is a concern for me and I am just explaining this from my point of view - I don't want to convince you of anything I just want you to understand my point of view - so I can see how the sister perceived it as an attack on her personally.

You were great. The hanging up could just be that you overloaded her circuits. You led her down a very logical path. I am surprised she went as far down it as that.

TBM's are terrified of logic when applied to their religion. Terrified. They have no experience with it and they don't know what to do with it. You left her no choice but to choose between what she knew was right or her church's illogical teachings. Her breaker switch flipped. The power went off.

I have seen the look of utmost horror come over my mother's face one time when she was presented with some facts and logic that went against her church. She was let off the hook, but the look on her face is buried in my memory forever.

so you didn't go too far. You definitely got her thinking. I'd be interested in what she says next time you talk because I'm sure you will. It was things like this that got me thinking--not just about gays, but I'd read things in newspapers about people who opened food kitchens, etc., for the homeless--gave up a well paying career and put all their money and energy into taking care of others.

I remember once my dad saying to me, "There are going to be a lot of shocked people when they get to the next life."

No, you were fine. You made her uncomfortable because you crossed a boundary that exposed the hypocrasy of her faiths, and it made her uncomfortable to see that exposure. Rather than face it, she hung up.

But you did not go too far, provided that you never raised your voice and kept the conversation in a pleasant (read: non-mocking or nasty) tone.

kind of set her up with your premise of a giving gay couple versus greedy endowed Mormon couple (and brilliantly I might add) The problem arose when the coversation forced her to face her own cog-dis. No doubt she will blame you for making her think.

Mormons have a very strong teaching and belief that satan will lead them step by step carefully away. He will lead them to a point of no return.

She may have been thinking along those lines when she hung up. She may have realized she was agreeing with things that she never thought she'd agree with. When the realization hit, she hung up.

They talk about this concept endlessly. In talks, lessons, ad GC. They are certain that satan wants them more than any other people on the planet because of the covenants they've taken, and because they belong to the one and only true church on the earth. Sis might have felt herself going over the line of what's acceptable.
It doesn't matter if it makes complete and total sense.

NO!...and hopefully you sowed a seed of doubt in her mind...

This is why I try to live by the wise teaching (short version)of my "dad" (maternal grandfather): If you want to keep a friend, don't discuss religion or politics. They tend not to end well.


I've taken the position that, generally, other people's opinions are none of my business when it comes to religion and politics.

I don't think it's my place to plant seeds of doubt.
My experience is that it rarely works anyhow and can ruin a relationship in a hurry.

Somethings fall under what we used to call: propriety or appropriateness. Some subjects are better left alone and kept private - in a polite society. Ya, I'm probably "old fashioned" but I know it works to preserve relationships that I want to keep.

And, no, I don't discuss religion or politics with my siblings.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/23/2012 01:09PM by SusieQ#1.

Actually I would have hung up on you too, even though I agree with you.

Treating family members with basic respect and not acting holier-than-thou is a relationship basic. Even if you hold the moral high ground, or rather, especially if you hold the moral high ground, you shouldn't use guilt as a tool to get people to think. Thats cult-like manipulation.

No. You gave her food for thought.

But it is necessary to know when to step back in order to maintain a good relationship.

I would only have suggested different language. Mormons are extremely sensitive to the superficial way things are described about their beliefs. If you can manage to make the exact same points while respecting their prosy cultspeak I would expect less spontaneous retreats.

example (changes in caps):

Me: So you’re saying that if two persons are equally loving, equally giving, selfless and helpful...Except one of these two spent ten minutes on an altar saying “Yes” to A PRAYER, while the other spent that ten minutes loving someone through service, God would say to the UNENDOWED person, “sorry, you didn’t exercise this FORMALITY at the altar. You can’t enter heaven.” IS THIS REALLY YOUR VIEW OF GOD'S LAWS?

No.

I think she hung up because she realized how ridiculous it sounded and what could she say really without sounding terrible. You did not go to far. Maybe it planted a seed.

Interesting that her response to your well reasoned point of view was to run away. The problem your sister has is that the Mormon answer to your question is 'yes, God would prefer the people who have been to the alter rather than those who haven't, regardless of the level of Christlike attributes'.

Realising that is the answer causes reasonable minded Mormons to implode, which is why she ran away.

You challenged her thinking and she had reasonable, rational thoughts that were contrary to what she has been taught in church and it made her UNCOMFORTABLE! Well done! It is only when there is cognitive dissonance that people will leave.

Title sounded like Hillbilly talk after a back woods family reunion.

DNA Wrote:
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> Title sounded like Hillbilly talk after a back
> woods family reunion.


Yes, but it made you look!