I tried to be upfront and label myself tbm and make my intentions clear from my first post.

I've started a couple of threads asking questions with some good responses.

The following was one of them from "MIA":

"eekel, In your original post you said that you had been questioning your choice of religion for years.

What are the questions that have been persisted in your head for all of those years? I ask, because I think that may be why you are really here. There are quite a few who came to this board to work out unanswered questions. In my experience almost every Mormon has at least one question they don't dare ask. They don't dare discuss it with their bishop or friends out of fear of being perceived as weak, or not faithful enough. Myself, I had a truck load of questions I'd been dragging around. They've been answered by people here, or by reading up on topics. I had no idea there were so many well written, and researched books written by professionals in the field. I wouldn't have known where to find them.

Also, if you were to leave the church, how do you think your mother and siblings would react? Are you afraid they might hate you the way your mother hates your father?

So, ask away. You will find a great burden will be lifted as you find the answers to questions you've had for years. We will do our best to help you."

My response to MIA:

I absolutely visited this forum because I have questions about my religion. I question its history and the actions of prominent men in the religion. I have had questions for a long time and go through periods of looking and not looking. I never denied it, tried to hide it, or escape it.

I started a thread asking a question because I was blown away by the number of threads here that essentially blame a church for one's personal disappointments or frustrations with their family life or personal problems.

I question my religion. I don't blame the church because my dog dies, my mom beats me, or my dad is an alcoholic. Can anyone else see the disconnect? Are there people on this board who have no deep seated hatred for a church-----an inanimate object incapable of doing anything to anyone------or is this just a place to vent frustrations for personal or familial failure blanketed under the guise of exposing a cult?

Neither does anyone else here, you craven fool. So quit trying to sound like Denial C. Peterson and, as you said: $#!t or get off the pot.

> I question its history and the actions of prominent men in the religion.

Start asking, then. Quit being an @$$hole and ask about "its history and the actions of prominent men" ...

...assuming you're sincere, that is.

To minimize that with a comparison of your dog dying is actually deeply rude and dismissive.

And plenty of Mormon moms DO beat their children because of your church. Specifically, because your church pushed them (through its many teachings) to marry young, before established financially and in a career, and start a family. So parents have children, debt AND crippling demands on them by their church. And that, my friend, is the environment which produces child abuse.

And that alcoholic father? Where do you think he might be if the church wasn't working and tithing him half to death?

So get over yourself. This is not the place to come and defend your church. If you have questions about the history of your church ask. If you don't like the posts here, don't read them. But take your deception and sensitivity elsewhere because they are NOT going to be tolerated here.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/07/2012 12:39PM by Rebeckah.

Rebeckah Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > And plenty of Mormon moms DO beat their children
> because of your church.

So no moms would beat their children if there was no mormon church? It's absolute? It must be the church because certainly it couldn't be the mom that is the problem?

If you take an abusive mother and excommunicate her so she isn't a mormon would she stop beating her children?

Strawman arguments.

NEXT!

eekel is a troll

Seems like a reasonable one at least so all you all can do is edumacate eekel....

Ain't no such beast as a reasonable troll.

Very little flaming on eekel's part. I know he/she is stirring a hornet's nest here.

My point being is for y'all to educate him/her on what is exactly WRONG with mormonism.
I can, but only from a nevermo's perspective, so it will hold little weight.

Eekel's shelf may be close to "full" and only needs a few extra things added to have it crashing down...

>> I absolutely visited this forum because I have questions about my religion. I question its history and the actions of prominent men in the religion. (from the OP)

If the person has these questions, then where are they? If the person is sincere about them, why stir up the hornet's nest first? Conclusion based on long observation: eekel DOES NOT WANT to ask sincere questions. eekel WANTS to stir up hornet's nest.

In my opinion:
"Eekel's shelf may be close to "full" and only needs a few extra things added to have it crashing down..."

that's all I can think. So far this discourse has been reasonable and yes, y'all have asked for specifics which eekel should address if he/she is honest in getting real answers and giving real answers..

Really? Buildings are inanimate objects, but they are not churches or religions. Churches or religions are the people who adhere to them. The church IS the people, especially the old guys, the GAs, in Salt Lake City, who pull all the strings.

Just in case it's still not sinking in, I shall repeat: the Mormon religion "church", and all religions, are the people. They are not inanimate, although I have to say I've met some churchie people that seem awfully inanimate.

(Couldn't resist.) ;)

"I started a thread asking a question because I was blown away by the number of threads here that essentially blame a church for one's personal disappointments or frustrations with their family life or personal problems."

Search this site and you will see M-A-N-Y examples of people who have had "the church" blame THEM for:
Lack of faith.
As a result of this very lack of faith, illnesses, fiancial problems, family problems.
As a TBM you CanNOT even reconcile the temple rituals and how mormons exclude people from temple weddings.
Shunning of all types..

the list is endless.

-YOU- feel that the mormon religion is spirtually uplifting??? Great, knock yourself out and enjoy all those "useful" callings that you do or will do that will take up all of your time.

Others here DON'T feel that way for very good reasons and they have every RIGHT to express why....-THEY- are not wrong...just different than you so please accept that and don't -blame- them...

See this is where we disagree with you….we don’t see the Church as a benign entity…..we believe it to be corrupt organization made up of very real people whose policies, motives and actions are dangerous and harmful to people.

It is a lifestyle promulgated from the top down.

There are very few Mormon individuals with whom I have a problem. Percentage-wise, it's pretty much the same like/dislike ratio I have with humans generally. I.e., I tend to have no problem with the vast majority of people.

The institutional church, however, and how it is run, bothers me greatly. The church's proposed lifestyle doesn't work for everyone. But the cultural expectation of most Mormons, as told to them by the institutional church, is that the church works for everyone. It isn't the ward members who sincerely believe this that troubles me, but rather the very idea that such a thing is even possible, let alone desirable. And this idea is taught to the membership via correlated materials of the institutional church.

I hope that clears up some of your confusion.

However, I have a question for you now: Have you ever asked your father why he left?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/07/2012 12:47PM by elee.

elee Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It is a lifestyle promulgated from the top down.
>
>
> There are very few Mormon individuals with whom I
> have a problem. Percentage-wise, it's pretty much
> the same like/dislike ratio I have with humans
> generally. I.e., I tend to have no problem with
> the vast majority of people.
>
> The institutional church, however, and how it is
> run, bothers me greatly. The church's proposed
> lifestyle doesn't work for everyone. But the
> cultural expectation of most Mormons, as told to
> them by the institutional church, is that the
> church works for everyone. It isn't the ward
> members who sincerely believe this that troubles
> me, but rather the very idea that such a thing is
> even possible, let alone desirable. And this idea
> is taught to the membership via correlated
> materials of the institutional church.
>
> I hope that clears up some of your confusion.
>
> However, I have a question for you now: Have you
> ever asked your father why he left?


Yes. We've had the conversation many times. As you said, it wasn't for him. It's not for everyone. I wonder at times if it's for me. I don't think that makes me bad or good-----it doesn't make me a future bishop or future apostate. It makes me human.
The ironic thing is many who have replied to me are just as emotional and violent as a group of tbm's if you asked them similar questions that challenged their comfort zone--------makes me wonder.

>> I absolutely visited this forum because I have questions about my religion. I question its history and the actions of prominent men in the religion.

Where are they?

"I wonder at times if it's for me. I don't think that makes me bad or good-----it doesn't make me a future bishop or future apostate. It makes me human."

Have you discussed this with your bishop??

As others have asked and I'll ask now...
What exactly makes you think that sometimes mormonism is not for you??

Makes you wonder.. what? If we're all human, mormons and exmormons alike? Um, duh?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/07/2012 01:05PM by WinksWinks.

Wonder what????

You come here with a judgmental accusatory attitude posing as a “questioning TBM” and then wonder why you get attitude right back at you.

because of the way you have chosen to express yourself. You are using incredibly loaded language and insisting that anyone here who complains about Mormonism is a gigantic wuss who is refusing to take responsibility for themselves.

You are wrong in this assumption and this is why you are being taken to task.

A better approach would be for you to actually ask the questions you came here to ask about history and doctrine. Tell us about your experiences and try to refrain from telling others how they should feel or that they are wrong to feel the way they do.

The institutional church does cause problems in peoples' lives in a variety of ways. It is not for you to say it isn't so simply because it doesn't square with your experience.

Stop with the finger pointing and try being a little empathetic. It will get you much further here than your current approach.

Unless you really are here only to stir the pot. In which case, watch your bum. The Piranhas are circling.

I hear, "I have plenty of questions, but I'm not going to ask them. Also, y'all are angry for stupid, made up reasons."

We hear that a lot. From true believing mormons who still think our reasons for leaving are because we wanted to sin, or got offended over something petty.

I don't think Eekel really has any questions. Please prove me wrong, though!
But questions don't come in the form of accusations...

Well, the church is not an inanimate object, IMHO. It's an organization that has purpose and commits acts. It seeks to indoctrinate, proseletyze and control the beliefs of it's members. It is a meme that has evolved for those express purposes, and seems sinister when viewed through that perspective.

Like all religious organizations, it is completely necessary to view dissenters as defective in some way. "Lost sheep" at least, and "Apostate" in the end.

These are partial reasons that some people are angry.

Some people here will be hostile to you. Part of this is their attitude, obtained for reasons valid to them. Another part of it is that you may be unintentionally communicating in a way that you have learned from association with the church. Those unintended communication patterns can offend because they bring back bad memories to many of us.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/07/2012 01:06PM by rationalguy.

eekel

First of all I'm NOT a failure. For you to assume that I am is incredibly misguided.

You obviously don't know or understand your own religion. Your arrogance is topped only by your ignorance. You seem quite proud of remaining in your ignorance. That's fine. Stay there. But stay there someplace else. Choosing to stay ignorant is not what this site is about. Church will feed and maintain your ignorance for your entire life. They will even let you pay them for the service.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/07/2012 01:00PM by Mia.

Can you blame Jim Jones's church for having parents poison their children and then commit suicide?

Or were all those people in Jonestown just individually sad for seperate reasons on the same day?

TSCC can't be blamed for everything that goes wrong for people affected by it, but it causes so many problems that it's hard to filter it's influences sometimes.

People who leave the Church do sometimes lay too much blame at the feet of the Church— I do it myself sometimes. You have to remember a couple of things though.

1) People's anger does not minimize or remove the very real issues that Mormonism has. Critics can overstate the issues with Church. Most members refuse to admit there are any issues. As Ed Kimball said, (paraphrasing) "LDS claim they do not believe in prophetic infallibility but when asked what the Brethren have done worng can never seem to think of anything."

People have bias.It does not however change the fact there are real issues at play.

2) This board is about recovery and part of the process of dealing with feelings of betrayal etc is vocalizing your concerns and expressing your anger. Remembering why people are doing what they're doing is useful.

3) The Church is not inanimate but by it's own reckoning a living org. It is authoritarian and has a top down hierarchy. While no one person is in control, the Church can and will change when it is in it's own interests (polygamy, ban on blacks etc). This change however only comes after pressure is applied. Unlike TBMs who still believe that it is wrong to question and criticize, ex-Mos are free to say what they really think. If that bothers you, I suggest you don't spend a lot of time here.

As WinksWinks mentioned though, I somehow think you are not really questioning but instead are out trolling/bearing testimony. If I am wrong, I'd love to hear your issues.