Hello All,

I am new to this forum. As I read through the posts out there I am finding that I don't quite fit in here, although my experience is somewhat similar to many of yours. I am just wondering if anyone else feels the way I do.

My Story:
I have been a member my whole life, but over the past year or two, I have learned things about our church that make me think it can't be true. This has been sad for me, kind of like when I found out Santa Clause wasn't real. It has made me not only question my belief in the mormon church, but religion in general.

Now the part that makes me different: I feel very little bitterness towards the church, and in fact, I still think it is a great organization. I don't believe the leaders of the church are master manipulators who willingly mislead us, as it seems many on here do. I believe they are good, if not great men who happen to be mislead. I do believe they care deeply about the members of the church and are trying their best to teach them the things they think are right. Anyone who says that President Monson is anything but a kind, loving, and generous man is delusional.

The same can be said for members of the church. They are for the most part kind, hardworking, Christian people. I have not found that they are resentful or disrespectful to me due to my current beliefs, but quite the contrary. I still enjoy the association of my mormon friends and find that they are still the kind of people that I want to associate and be friends with, perhaps more so than the general population. The times I do see members react badly towards nonbelievers, and perhaps justifiably so, is when they try to tear down the church. Bitterness and anger aimed at an individual or something important to that individual will be likely be reflected back by all but the best of people.

So, I am rambling, but I wanted to know if anyone else out there feels the way I do? I am in fact considering returning to church when I have kids due to the positive influence I feel that it exerted on my life growing up. I feel that I am a better person because of the principles I learned at church.

So anyone feel the way I do?

Me.

I think they're all good people connected by a lie.

I'm a convert, with a relatively short history with the church. I haven't been hurt the way a lot of people have here by the institution.

A lot of people said they liked Bernie Madhoff too.

To some extent, I feel that way. I think Mormons are people like everyone else-some good and some bad. I do not think the GAs are master minipulators and I think they believe to some extent,but I do disagree with much of their teachings. However, I do not care for the church, its doctrines or its politics and would not raise my kids in it. For those who need religion, I think there are better churches out there which give more and take less. I do not care for the conservatism of Mormonism, the one size fits all philosophy or the emphasis on appearances. I think thise ideas can be harmful.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/11/2012 11:47PM by bona dea.

I like you. Or were you asking if I am like you? Just remember a lot of us are in different stages then you are, and nearly every one of us handles those stages differently. I for one have a bit of a habit of being just a bit sarcastic in how I handle things.

And because of stuff you write. Obviously.

People have had different experiences in the church and have known different types of Mormons. That certainly colors people's perceptions.

I used to feel like you do about a year ago. I hated learning about the past church history, but I honestly felt that the brethren were just delusional and trying make the church a better place to be. Now....1 year later I know for sure they are just as bad as good ol Joe'. I do not mean in a sexual sense, but in a con-man sense. I would try to go back and read as much as you can about the statements they have made. General Conference, Talks given at BYU, talks given to the press. As for President Monson, he is the most cranky old guy there is. He is rude to the Church receptionists who run the switchboard. He is impatient. When he came to Temple Square while I was on my mission he was all Mr. Business. He did not use his Conference voice. He didn't enjoy talking pictures with us Sisters. I have a group picture we took and you can see in his expression the look of hurry up so I can get out of here. I am sure there are so many people on this board who have similar stories.

As for the Church being a good place to raise your kids. I pulled mine immediately when I learned the truth. They have only been back once and that was to say goodbye to their friends when we moved. They are indoctrinated from nursery on up. My kids will never grow up feeling they are better than someone else because they supposedly have the truth. They will not judge anyone based on their sexuality or what they look like. They won't be told that the Temple is Sacred when it is the farthest thing from sacredness.

We looked at many churches this last year. One thing we found was that the way they were portrayed by the Mormon church was not at all the way they actually were. The Christian churches I have attended so far give a huge amount of thier offerings to the needy, the schools, missions that actually benefit the needy verses young men and women trying to convert you to the "Truth",local organizations and to their members. When someone says "We will pray for you" they actually mean it and sometimes do it right there with you. I attended a Non-denominational Church where 88% of their donations were given to the needs of others. LDS inc. gives less that 1 %. I think that is based off of many years.

As for the positive influence it had on you, I remember thinking that as well. Now I know I can find a whole lot of better out there.

Really this is a pretty diverse community, and our experiences run the whole gambit. Your interactions with the corporation appear to have been primarily positive, and I'm glad for you. Not everyone can say the same (this is a huge understatement, by the way), so I'm also very glad this forum exists.

People here will often show you what they really think. It's a rather liberating experience for somebody who has spent a lifetime suppressing true opinions, daring only to say and feel what the church teaches us we ought to say and feel.

Welcome to the fold. Life couldn't hope to get an R rating if it were a movie, so get a thick skin and keep reading :)

> I don't believe the leaders of the church are master
> manipulators who willingly mislead us, as it seems
> many on here do. I believe they are good, if not
> great men who happen to be mislead. I do believe
> they care deeply about the members of the church
> and are trying their best to teach them the things
> they think are right. Anyone who says that
> President Monson is anything but a kind, loving,
> and generous man is delusional.

Call me delusional. Until you can prove Jesus Christ personally has appeared and counseled that man, I'll be just as happy to throw the charge back at you.

The leaders of the church actively monitor and bully dissenters into silence. Kind, loving, and generous... okay, sure.

> The same can be said for members of the church.
> They are for the most part kind, hardworking,
> Christian people. I have not found that they are
> resentful or disrespectful to me due to my current
> beliefs, but quite the contrary. I still enjoy the
> association of my mormon friends and find that
> they are still the kind of people that I want to
> associate and be friends with, perhaps more so
> than the general population. The times I do see
> members react badly towards nonbelievers, and
> perhaps justifiably so, is when they try to tear
> down the church. Bitterness and anger aimed at an
> individual or something important to that
> individual will be likely be reflected back by all
> but the best of people.

Uh, why don't you talk to the kids on here whose parents have cut off their insurance and disowned them, leaving to face the tempest of life almost completely unequipped at 18... for the sole reason that they chose to believe differently about religion. Talk to some of the people who have endured decades of torment just for happening to be gay or lesbian. People whose families have been torn apart and they've been left alone in the world.

There are plenty of great Mormon people, none of us doubt that. But that statement is just incorrect. There are plenty of awful ones as well... and their conduct is often times condoned by TSCC.

> So, I am rambling, but I wanted to know if anyone
> else out there feels the way I do? I am in fact
> considering returning to church when I have kids
> due to the positive influence I feel that it
> exerted on my life growing up. I feel that I am a
> better person because of the principles I learned
> at church.
>
> So anyone feel the way I do?

Go ahead. Tell me how that works out for ya.

Just for the record, welcome. I don't have a problem with you at all. I'm a sarcastic ass, and I'm the first to admit it. However, I fundamentally disagree with your assertions about the church and its leadership.

And I hope you're having a nice day :)

... or did the temperature rise a few degrees? :-p

I love sarcastic, cynical people...

I would say I had a reasonably good run in the Mormon church. There are things I regret, like giving so much money in tithing that I could have done real good with in the world. Or the fact I didn't have a real wedding and that my dad had to wait outside. I have met a number of people who are really good people, trying to really make a difference in the world who are Mormon. But I also had a lot of fun, made some great friends and great memories. The church was good to me for a lot of years and it was my original plan to keep going for the values and the social life you find in Mormonism. However...

Once I stopped going to church, it was like I saw those people show their real selves slip out from under the "good, hard-working" mask they wore. I've never seen so many people throw the Savior's teachings in the toilet, simply because I didn't agree with them. Only a few people rose to the challenge and treated me like they were still my friend. Compare this with all my non-LDS friends who ALL (with one exception) welcomed me back with open arms. Friends who believed me, were happy I escaped and who were loyal - surprisingly since I'd been too busy in Mormonism to give most of them the time of day. I didn't deserve the snotty, condescending, judgmental behavior of the Mormons but I didn't deserve the kindness and loyalty of the non-LDS since I'd been rather neglectful of them. But they didn't hold my choices against me. Mormons did. The non-LDS were by far the most Christlike. I never said a word against the church to my Mormon friends but they lied and slandered and snubbed me without even giving me a chance to defend myself. Not one single person even asked me why I wasn't at church. They just made up a big, fat lie and turned their backs on me. If you think Mormons are nice people, tell them the truth about the church and see what happens. It's scary. You will find some that are good people but you will be surprised at how many are not good people ... and who they are.

Even if Joseph Smith/Jesus appeared to me and told me the church was true, I wouldn't hang out with the vast majority of my LDS friends because the Savior's teachings mean nothing to them, as long as they look like good little Mormons they think they are good people. It's all about image - try scratching the surface and see what happens.

A few questions you might want to ask yourself. If you go back to church and you don't believe it, are you being true to yourself? Are you going to have to fake it with other members so they don't look down on you because you lost your testimony? Do you really think you aren't capable of raising your children properly without the church? I saw a something cool on Facebook today. It's a picture of Willy Wonka as played by Gene Wilder with the caption "Oh, you need religion to guide you morally? Couldn't figure our murder was wrong by yourself, huh?". I don't think you need to have the church to raise your children properly.

I left the church because I never had a witness that it was true. I could have stayed around and played the game since almost all of my friends and family were church-goers. That didn't feel right to me. I didn't like having my time wasted being bored for three hours every Sunday. I also didn't like the home teachers coming by without calling to make and appointment (one time they showed up at 9:30 PM). I hated Bishop's interviews even though I wasn't doing anything wrong, and I hated most of the church callings I had, and I especially hated the expectation that I was supposed to tell every non-member I knew about the church and try to be a missionary to them. I realized how judgmental I was being towards others and all these years later I still struggle with that because it was so ingrained in me.

The church: Sucks
Monson: Sucks
You calling anyone who disagrees delusional: Sucks

So, you are willing to raise your children in a church that you know is a lie? Why would you do that to your children? The mormon values are all show, no substance. You can do better.

I really do hope you follow CA girl's advice and give that surface a good ole scratching. You seemed to have lumped all the mormons into the 'good' column. I am wary of painting with such a broad brush stroke. As with everything in life, it is good to have the whole picture. I think you will find those that you refer to as trying to tear down the church are actually just shining a light where they think one needs to be shown.

Most on this forum know there are some lovely mormons, but they aren't the reason we're here.

I have seen too much in my life to ever agree with your post. Families ripped to shreds, parents unable to see their own children married, women looked down on for wanting careers, the disabled and destitute still pressured to pay tithing on their meager disability checks as the church puts billions into a mall, the hate directed at the gay community, and on and on... If you are a member of the church you are part of that package, you don't get to just claim the good parts.

And for myself, I was forced to choose between living a lie or being a second class citizen in my own family by telling the truth.

It may be time to get some dirt under your fingernails and get to the bottom of things.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/12/2012 12:14AM by blueorchid.

I think it is a very bad place and a constant thorn in my side. It is an ever looming threat covering my existence. Every day that goes by I hope. I hope the spell it has cast on my family will be broken. But my hope wains and I start to doubt that they will ever see through the con and free themselves .. And me from their judgment.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/12/2012 12:12AM by suckafoo.

The Mormon church has been wrong about everything over the years. Much of their core doctrine has been abandoned. If you like living among Stepford people, go ahead and do so. But if you raise your children in that subculture, be prepared to have them judge you harshly should you ever fail to believe.

Thomas Monson is driven around in a $900,000 armored Audi. It boggles the mind that anyone could believe he's a "man of the people!"

Hey, as Benny Hinn once said... "just because I'm a man of God doesn't mean I need to drive a Honda!"

Sure, and Jesus would wear a solid gold Rolex and wear Armani suits.

I think that most Mormons are genuinely good people. What I have a problem with is that I was taught from a very early age that all of this was true. I believed it and made many life decisions based on that belief. I gave up possible opportunities for sports scholarships because I wouldn't play on Sundays. I wasted a year and a half on a mission and thousands of dollars of my own hard-earned money which could have been used on school. I paid tithing when I didn't have money for food. I made all those sacrifices willingly, because I believed it. But it's not true, and I can never get back all the time, money, and opportunities I lost. I would never let own kids sacrifice so much for a fairy tale. And what would you tell them when they come to you and ask if you knew it was a lie? Will they lose respect for you when you tell them that you intentionally taught them lies because you thought it would be a positive influence?

Something seems a bit disingenuous about the OP. I mean no offense, but how can one who discovers that Joseph Smith and his inner circle created an elaborate hoax in order to exploit faithful believers for the purpose of gaining power, prestige and sexual conquest honestly claim that Mormonism is a benevolent organization? How can one say that venerating a con man and sexual predator is valuable in teaching one's children about virtue? How does a person justify the Church's past and present bigotry, from its racism and sexism to its current attack on the civil rights of our homosexual brothers and sisters?

Mormons are as human as the rest of us; some are good, some are bad, all are flawed. They certainly aren't special.

If "ilikemormons" is being genuine in the OP, then I suspect that they are suffering from a particularly nasty case of cognitive dissonance. The current church is immoral in its bigotry, immoral in its greed, and immoral in its deceptions. It is not good for the well-being of the individual, the family, or society.

When I first started figuring out the truth, I went through a stage where I believed the church was still good, and Joseph Smith was an all right guy who had deceived himself. Then I started learning even more things about both the church and Joseph Smith, and I started not liking either of them. I tried to hold on to brother Brigham a little longer as a hero, but in time the truth about his character began to soil my image of him.

I wanted to hold onto the idea that the church was a lie, but it was a well intended lie, because it gave my actions as a missionary and a church member meaning. In time I came to terms with the truth, but it was a painful road.

Interesting. My image of the church slowly corroded until my testimony finally disintegrated. I saw the racism, the immorality of Smith's and Young's polygamy, the church's unethical actions during Prop 8, Hinckley's lies to the media, the harsh and unjust treatment of their missionary force (I experienced this firsthand), and suffered through anti-intellectual and anti-feminist Sunday School lessons before I decided the church was false. It seemed ugly and broken to me before I left, so I suppose you and I arrived at similar conclusions on decidedly different paths.

Maybe it's because I was young and idealistic. When I thought it was true, I would have done anything they asked. I was like that missionary in the Book of Mormon musical who believes that God is more powerful than men with guns. Realizing that it was all a lie changed everything. Even if every single Mormon truly was a good person with the best of intentions who was misled, it's still wrong for so many people to be sacrificing so much for something that isn't real. It's just a terrible waste.

I wish membership in the church was as innocuous as battling windmills, but it's more damaging than that. Joseph Smith created a monster and Mormons keep feeding it. They sacrifice their friends, families and livelihoods to it, hoping that, somehow, something good will come of it.

It's not that I blame them for buying into the lie of Mormonism; frankly, there are parts of the religion I love and still cling to, if only metaphorically. For instance, I love the concept that humans are gods in embryo, that we have the potential to be something greater than we are now: more civil, more intelligent, more benevolent. How awesome is that? The focus on families, though narrowly-defined and perverse, is still wonderful IN THEORY. Also, I think the church's welfare system began as a somewhat inspired example of beneficial socialism.

The issue for me, though, is not whether there is anything positive about the church, but whether its sum adds up to something positive. It doesn't. In the end it's just another man-made, money-and-resource-eating-creature that seeks to exert its will and inequitable social ideologies on the world.

+1

When I joined the church at 17 in 1973, I was young and naive. I joined more for the social aspects than for the religion. After my formal indoctrination, seminary, mission and temple marriage, I started to put the pieces of the puzzle together. It was then that started to see the big picture and really became interested in the "religion" of my church. I was shocked by what I found, then I was angry. Fortunately my wife and I chose not raise our kids in the mormon madness and got out after ten years. I still have many Mormon friends and family that are active members and actually I have seem some of them slowly fall away as the truth manifests itself as it did for my wife and I. Do not waste you time with foolishness in a cult. Get out now and never look back my friend. There are many here who will help you in your journey.

It's late, and I'll be surprised if my little post at the end here will even get read, but I just want to weigh in on this.

The Mormon church is a hugely deceptive organization, founded on lies, and continues to perpetrate the lies. That is NOT a good foundation upon which to build something GOOD, as you claim it is.

Please stop deluding yourself and get real. Once the bullshit detector has been calibrated correctly, it isn't difficult to detect BS where ever it may be found, and the Mormon church is chock full of it. As are you.

There are good people in many churches. BUT the difference is what YOUR church did- lied to you. Said a man JS was a prophet. SAID he had a vision (which one). The church you have gone to has not been honest about JS. He married a 14 yr. old. You think that is okay?? He married the wives of other men he sent on missions overseas. YOU think that is okay??? I feel sorry if you will raise kids in a fraudulent organization. YOU even called it an organization. If I am worshipping I want to go to a church that has Jesus as the foundation of all we do. The Mormons rarely speak of Jesus. That is becuse they do not honor and worship the Christian Jesus. IMO Mormonism is greedy and money hungry more than anything. They send boys out on missions to deceive and tell only a small part of their story. Why hold back. Why not be upfront with all of their weird beliefs...like baptizing dead people and not allowing nonmormon parents to see thier own kid's marriage. They do not associate with others like Americans in other religions do. I know. I lived in Utah as a nonmormon. They are arrogant and it was not fun for me or my family to be ignored. But hey, if you think that is cool, have at it.

Mormonism is child abuse. You are about to abuse your children.

TSCC holds different standards for the average members than for the leadership. Many average members are deluded like we all were.
Please read Mormonism: A Life Under False Pretenses by former Bishop Lee. B Baker - he deals with the differing moral standards between the regular members and the GAs and higher ups.
The upper echelon are horrible immoral bastards.
How does this sound for friendly and kind Mormons?
Brigham Young: Death to inter-racial couples:
“Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the AFRICAN RACE? If the WHITE man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the PENALTY, under the LAW OF GOD, IS DEATH ON THE SPOT. THIS WILL ALWAYS BE SO.” (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 10, page 110)
Pretty hateful stuff and it goes on and on........

I believe most members are good people in a terrible religion. I've been in the church all my life and have met some wonderful people. However, I have a hard time believing the GA are all perfectly sweet old men that are just following a untrue religion. The things we learn about how untrue the church are, I doubt they have never heard of them. So in other words, they aren't just ignoring them, they are teaching things that we know are contrary to history. I'm not saying all of them are evil or whatever, but I have a hard time thinking they were all kind and awesome guys when they are doing the things they are doing and supporting the things they support.

So sorry...have a hard time agreeing with you.

I don't believe your post for a second, but if you are sincere you should know that (God forbid) if one of your kids is raped on a church outing, function, priesthood interview, whatever, LDS lawyers will likely argue that the perpetrator not be turned over to law enforcement but that the church itself has a first amendment right to "reform" sex abusers themselves with no legal intervention. They have countless times, it's public record, look it up if you like. The church protects sex offenders. I don't care how nice your Mormon friends are, LDS Inc. is not safe for children.

Out of curiosity, what things have you learned that lead you to believe the church isn't true?

Ilikemormons, what kind of morality do you really value?

Do you really value the (lack of) morality that will support the crimes committed by Joseph Smith? The so-called church, and many members and leaders who know the truth, choose to publically support Joe's immoralities.

Oh, they will try to lie and cover up the facts about Joe's adulteries, but when that fails, they will then admit to his acts, but they will say "Marryin'Joseph" was justified by god's commands.

As a Mormon, you are giving your support to this immorality. Joe had sex with dozens of women he conned into "sealing" to him. Two were 14 years old. Eleven were already married to other men!

Is this the "better person" you claim yourself to be? Is this your true morality? Cuz it's not mine, thanks.

By supporting the church with your attendance and tithes, you become personally responsible for the church's crimes regarding Joseph Smith. And this is the legacy you wish to leave your children?

Sure, there are some good people in the Church, but they’re blindly and ignorantly following and giving money to a corporation masquerading as a church that’s more interested in business ventures like a 5 billion dollar malls than actually helping the less fortunate.

You’d think if God gave a rat’s ass it’d be about time for Jesus to come back and throw the “money changers” out of the temple again

No.
These men have a duty that accompanies their remarkable claims to absolute authority on planet Earth.
When these claims have so many significant problems; visible to anyone who can think critically, ignorance of these problems is not an acceptible excuse.
I think "ignorance" of these problems is not the correct description.