My parents are heartbroken that I have left the church and that their eternal family as falling apart. They've not been intrusive about it but I know they're hurting, especially because now 3/5 children are out.

My wife and I are planning a trip to Disneyland this September and my parents are planning on coming along. I don't wear garments anymore, but was wondering whether sleeveless shirts are appropriate given the hot weather. Just wanted opinions on whether this is too much of an "in-your-face" type thing for my parents, who, even though they haven't really been supportive, have been very respectful?

It WILL be hot in September in Southern California.
But why would parents even ask their adult married son about his underwear.
Do you see how insane this is?

If they bring it up, either change the subject or tell them you can chose your own underwear, thank you very much.

They haven't said anything about it and I doubt they will. I know they're disappointed (they've been conditioned to be) but they try not to let it show.

My question is more about how to avoid causing unnecessary pain to them. I don't think I'd hear about it either way.

I've had a hard time coming up with an opinion on this. All I can do is tell you what I would do personally. I personally would not do it simply to avoid causing any unnecessary pain. My parents have been absolutely perfect in respecting me and loving me personally so I would bend over backwards to avoid the possibility of upsetting them. Not that there would be anything wrong with going the other route - that is just what I would do. (Of course I do often wear shorts around them that are clearly to short for garments so maybe I'm fooling myself about what I would do.)

I know what you are saying. My family was the same. Heartbroken. Said a few things they shouldn't have, often hurtful, but tried really hard to be good about it. Respectful, as you say.

I never wanted to hurt them and I knew they would never understand what I had done in leaving the TSCC.

September is still really hot in So.Cal. You will be sorry if you wear shirts with sleeves. Of all the things you will find it hard to be 'in your face' about in the next few years, this is the easiest one. Sleeveless shirts are a great place to start showing your true colors as opposed to say, having a martini at dinner--I saved that one for never.

You've really nailed the heart of the matter---this is such a stupid thing. It shouldn't matter but I know that it does to them. So do I show them where I'm at or constantly try to avoid offending? Kind of a fine line to walk.

Any little thing you do that is outside of church practice is probably going to a blow in some form or another.

It doesnt have to be all 'in your face' if you make it out to be. You would likely make the situation that much more awkward for everybody if you're all walking on eggshells about it.

It's a process. Good luck man.

My personality is such that once I decide to do something, I just do. I'd try to make is as non-threatening as possible by not addressing it at all. I'm just trying to be sensitive.

Grandparents LOVE their grandchildren! Make it work out for all. Religion should be a nonissue around grandchildren.

Thank you wise woman! Being a nevermo grandma is proving to be a challenging tight rope walk with our convert son and his TBM spouse! Grandparents love is as parents should be.. Unconditional! We only have one grandson so far- and he is the absolute light of our lives!! Do we get to see him as much as we'd like to ? Nope. I don't think your parents will be as concerned with your views with the children around. Enjoy!

Instead of wondering what they are thinking, it might be nice to give them a hug before you go out and tell them that you appreciate their tolerance and you are trying to respect them, but the heat is just too much. Give them a short time to respond and then change the subject.

mormons and their sleeves, its crazy to think sooo much of the population would never give wearing a sleeveless shirt a second thought but to mormons a sleeveless shirt is enough to make some mothers cry.

my parents were way TBM but didn't seem to care about me wearing sleeveless shirts when I was in high school/still under their control. Tank tops probably wouldn't have flown though.

Since I already wore sleeveless in their house when I was younger I've never really thought about if they freak out when seeing me in sleeveless stuff or tank tops now. Actually I have heard my mom say she would be happy if she could wear sleeveless because of the heat but ofcourse she never will because she buys into those stupid garments.

Went to Disneyland a number of times with DH and my kids. You know what? I didn't die from wearing T-shirts with sleeves.

I lived there 12 years and I didn't ever get too hot from shirts with sleeves. And of course, I wore garments too.

I was a missionary in Argentina for 21 months. Not only is it hot there in the summer, but it is also humid. I did okay wearing blouses with sleeves.

You won't die from wearing a shirt with sleeves.

If you are like me and descended from Northern Europeans who were so foolish to be taken in by the Mormon missionaries, you would be better off wearing long sleeves, a hat and lots of sunscreen.

somehow exposed (to the sun) doesn't necessarily mean cool,
and the temperature is still whatever the temp. is, even if a person is naked ! (the arabs figured this out a long time ago)

"This above all, to thine own self be true."

Church leaders quote this line but when you actually apply it things get different.

Don't worry that just being a normal human being will "cause them pain." In fact it might make things better between you to have the air cleared now. Your parents are adults. Surely they are able to deal with disappointments. And they SHOULD be able to deal with disappointment over not being able to totally control their adult children.

Short sleeves, no garmies is what NORMAL people wear. Just act normal and give them the opportunity to accept it. Any "pain" you cause will be like the "pain" of a bandage quickly being removed--necessary but gotten over with quickly.

What would be cruel would be to lead them along and make them think there is "hope" that you will return. That will only set them up for worse misery later.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/11/2012 11:28PM by baura.

It's a hard thing. I honestly still put garments on when I'm going to see some people I don't want to explain everything to... and they're not even close to being at the same level of closeness as parents. I don't think it would be an "in the face" sort of thing... especially if your mood is good and you're all having a good time, but that is a tough call. You seem like you have a good head on your shoulders--I think you'll make the right call for you in the end! :)

The greatest show of respect you can show your parents is to let them know you for who you really are and give them the opportunity to love the real you.

Although sleeveless shirts are appropriate, I wouldn't do it. At least they have been somewhat kind to you. Show them that you can be a well dressed person and have their approval in or out of the church. Now around your home do as you please whether they are there or not. It is just nice to be with people who are not too shocked over so many changes with their child. Good luck on the trip and hope you all have many good memories.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/11/2012 11:58PM by honestone.

Short sleeves are not much hotter than sleeveless. I don't think that is a real issue. I guess I would decide based on whether I thought it would really bother my parents or stress me out by worrying about their reaction. My mother was not that type of Mormon so I can't really say. The whole issue or sleeves is rather silly and I would do whatever is most comfortable for you.I mean both in terms of the weather and your feelings about your parents' reaction.If you are going to be worried about your parents and stewing about it, I would wear something with short sleeves. If not, I would wear whatever I would wera were they not there.

I think it depends on the family/individuals involved. I mean, I would definitely say that drinking/smoking in front of them would be pretty offensive and cause problems - the sleaveless shirt thing...I'm going with not so much, but it's up to you. Sometimes I reallly think that tip toeing around almost just makes it all more awkward and and can draw just as much attention to it because they know that you are taking a specific action just to not upset them. They have to know that you don't wear garments anymore, so perhaps pretending like you still have that sort of dress standard is just not authentic and so is disrespectful...?
I actually really like what MJ said.

It will be hot. If you spend the day at Disney in a tank top, it's likely you'll get burned... Even if you use sunscreen. ToPs of shoulders are very hard to protect with the sun beating straight down on them. For that reason alone, I'd avoid a tank top.

I was born in 1941 and grew up at a time when sunscreen lotion was not available. Back then everybody thought that a deep suntan was healthy and prevented skin damage. Since I was an outdoors person to the extreme I got a lot of sun exposure.

Fast forward to 1986. I had some strange-looking patches of skin on my face so I went to a dermatologist. He said the patches were a form of "pre-cancer" and he used liquid nitogren to freeze them off. After checking out the skin over my entire body, he told me this: "You have already had a lifetime's worth of sun on your skin. Don't get any more sun anywhere. You should cover up 100% whenever you go outdoors in the sun."

That came as a major shock since I had *always* spent a lot of time out in the sun. But avoiding skin cancer did seem like a worthwhile objective. So I have followed the doctor's instructions for the past 26 years -- no sun on my skin. Wearing long sleeved shirts, long pants, a wide brim hat and gloves at all times while in the sun may seem like a real bother, but it is better than getting skin cancer.

I have continued to visit a dermatologist once a year since that time. During the visit he typically removes two *suspicious* moles and sends them to a laboratory to be checked for melanoma. So far this has prevented me from getting melanoma. That is one nasty form of cancer. If it metastasizes (spreads) from the primary location it is usually fatal. When I see people laying out in the sun, my first thought is "they know not what they do."

When a fair-skinned person plans to be outdoors in the sun for a full day, it makes sense to cover up most of the skin. White clothing is actually cooler than having the sun beating down on your bare skin. Sun screen is oily and uncomfortable when applied in the quantity needed to protect against all-day sun exposure.

That's my two cents worth.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/12/2012 08:17AM by saviorself.

1 out of 7 children my parents had resigned from TSCC and 4 out of 7 children my parents had are inactive permanently. Myself and my 4 siblings do not tiptoe around my parents about our decisions. We dress as we want, I have coffee in front of them, I speak how I want, I have alcohol in the house in the open (though I don't drink in front of them), etc... Respect goes both ways. I don't trash the church to or in front of them and they don't tell me how to live, dress, or raise my children. And I go shirtless with shorts as often as possible, drop the f-bomb from time to time, and my children all laugh about Zombie Jesus.

Just my two cents- if you wear the garment you run the risks of having your parents either condemn you for wearing the garment as a non-believer, or they may feel hopeful that since you are wearing them then there is hope that they can persuade you to change your mind.

Personally, I think it would be wrong to wear it after leaving the church. You might even be more respectful to remove it than to openly lie to your parents.

That wasn't what he was asking...

Oh?
Do tell.

He is asking whether to wear sleeveless shirts or short sleeve shirts not whether to wear garments.

just kidding.

It is a fine line. I think it depends on how comfortable you are with what you want to do, how often your parents will insist on voicing their "disappointment," and how comfortable you would be "behaving yourself" or not when you are with them.

I started off going easy on my family, but every year or so introduced something like:
* "I wear tighty whities now, mother."
* "Of course I have coffee at breakfast! Doesn't everyone?"
* "My other guests will have wine with dinner, you can have soda. Which would you like, 7-Up, Sprite, or Root Beer?"
* "No, I do not think that way anymore. Nor do I vote that way. Please stop assuming I do."
They "expressed disappointment" every time, at the same volume (actually, they fought every new item tooth and nail with all the Mormon Manipulation they could command).

So I don't think you need be shy about the decisions YOU make about how YOU intend to live YOUR life. They had their chance, and they're blowing it. Don't feel like you need to do the same just to make them happy.

I have a personal Article of Faith that says "avoid pointless conversations with people who can't be reasoned with on the subject in question." There is no way a garment-free outfit or a cup of Starbucks or a rum and Coke is going to be OK with your parents if they are that TBM. Any explanation will not help and they will not validate your life choices. They have been programmed to think a certain way.

This leaves you with two choices. You can just be yourself and realize that is going to provoke an irrational overreaction from your parents, even if they keep it to themselves in their hotel room. Not because of anything you have done but because the church has programmed this irrational thought pattern into them. Or you can just drink your coffee in private, wear a little more sleeve and keep the atmosphere of the trip as pleasant as possible. It's not fair you have to compromise but you can decide the tone of the trip and what memories you bring back. But you can't change your parents' reaction. Personally, when mom comes to visit (she lives about 8 hours drive away) I put away the coffee maker and wear clothes that don't accentuate my garment-free condition. And surprisingly, this visit because I'm not presenting her with obvious reasons to "worry" about me, she was able to listen calmly to my objections to the theory "People only leave the church because they are offended." I was surprised she really seemed to listen to me and think about what I was saying. Maybe because she wasn't worried about the coffee maker on the counter.

Whatever you decide, have a nice vacation!

MJ said something important, but I'm going to give it the opposite spin:

"The greatest show of respect you can show your parents is to let them know you for who you really are..."

Is underwear so important? I gather from this board that 'the right' undergarments are not important at all, post-mormon. Therefore why not 'not show' that you have chucked the garments, precisely because they ARE no longer important to you.

As a guy who has been to Disneyland in the summer many times, I never wore a sleeveless shirt; never saw any men in them, either. I know it's not the style, but a regular short-sleeve shirt or t-shirt was plenty cool (plus sweat-absorbing). For a woman, a parasol would be fine while waiting in lines...

Americans have an inordinate respect for 'factual truth,' as do individualistic, law-based, societies in general. In Japan where I live, a more collectivistic society, 'relational truth' often takes precedence in interpersonal relationships.

Will U.S.-style Radical Honesty, where straightforward and often tactless expression of one's own touchy reactions is valued over 'omoyari' or empathy with others, really benefit either you or your parents?

wearing a top with a small cap sleeve

v.

no sleeve.


My guess is, not much.


Then calculate having nearly the exact same body temperature/personal comfort level

v

everyone, including your parents, having an undistracted, stress free time at Disneyland while they are still processing your coming out.

For me, the last one would win out.

Now if you had been out of the church for 30 years, the answer might be different. But give your parents some time to adjust.