Most of the time, DS is just wonderful but lately he's started copping this attitude when I try to insist on civilized behavior from him. Now, granted, he's a teenager and a good boy - it doesn't surprise me that he feels he has to define his boundaries or sneak out of chores. Goes with the territory, right? But what bothers me is when he says "You don't get to define what's decent behavior." Maybe because it's so ... Mormon. Let me explain.

Most people would agree that there is a certain standard of decent behavior, although where that bar falls may be a bit different for different people. For example, most people think it's wrong to not bother to flush the toilet, or to throw garbage on the floor of their house and not pick it up, or barrel through life without saying "please" or "thank you". It's pretty crass behavior by most peoples' standard. So there is a certain standard most reasonable people live by. There are also going to be people who flaunt the standard. But to say no standard exists at all is to deny reality. Or, to say you get to behave like a slob but have everyone respect you like you were the epitome of civility is also unrealistic. DS is learning Spanish and if he called an "orange" a "manzana" he would be wrong. Spanish speakers would know he was wrong. If I corrected him and said "No, it's a naranja," he wouldn't get to say "You don't decide what Spanish words are." No, son, I don't get to decide. I just took the time to learn. You don't get to decide either and you can't demand that everyone respect you for calling a "naranja" a "manzana". The decision is already made - I'm just pointing it out to you.

Maybe it's because so many Mormons seem trapped in their Junior High mentality, but I see the same "tude" with them. They want to flaunt society, they don't bother to learn and then they demand the same respect as people who control their children in restaurants or who actually have manners. So this is probably bugging me way out of proportion to what is probably normal teen behavior. But it's hard to explain to my son the sort of rules that are important to him successfully fitting in with nice people when he's so surrounded by Mormons who scorn nice behavior in favor of (in their mind) superior Mormon behavior and customs. Maybe it's just the Mormons in our area and there are nicer Mormons elsewhere. There is so much I learned from my nevermo friends and associates that he doesn't get because he still hangs with way too many Mormon families who don't get it either. If he just were saying "that's not who I am" for some reason it would be better than if he were trying to say "that's not the way the world is." Because it's so Mormon to expect the world to change to suit them or to demand it respect them despite having done nothing to merit it. And when I try to teach him, I end up just wigging out unfairly because it's my fault I landed him with this hillbilly lifestyle and that I can't seem to help him see the world more clearly.

Anyway, thanks for letting me vent. Suggestions would be welcome. BTW, the above listed examples were things DS doesn't do - but he does similar things. I want to be fair to him and point out that those were just examples.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/22/2012 02:28AM by CA girl.

A couple of years ago I always acted weird and provocative while drunk in public. I had left a milieu of self-loathing conformity and was on my own. I felt like I was a victim and the world conspired against me so now they had to start to love me whatever I did. It ended up all in that I made a fool of myself, was not welcome to local pubs because of my behaviour. Now I know better and understand that I do not have to humiliate myself. I learned to allow me to have self-respect and not to harass innocent people.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/22/2012 02:31AM by volrammos.

but I do get to decide if you're allowed in the house or feed.

Or is that too Rosanne Barr?

He doesn't think you can define for him what is decent behavior. You think you know the baseline standard. You think he doesn't. You're trying to point out to him the baseline standard you believe exists.

It is a dilemma. How do two people co-exist when they have different standards? Is it possible to encourage, support, celebrate and even like someone and their different standards? Or are there absolutes? Standards that one person requires the other meet?

For me, at the moment, my non-negotiable standard is someone has to encourage and support me, even when I'm not making the choices and/or exhibiting the behavior they choose for themselves. I'll do the same in return.

I can't say that it works on a very large scale. I may have to abandon the idea. But, if I do, I'll always wonder why people can't encourage and even love someone who makes different choices and exhibits different behaviors and has a different standard than they do.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/22/2012 02:53AM by thingsithink.

It's totally possible to dearly love and accept someone who lives by different standards than you. It's not about getting someone to be just like you to be considered acceptable although so many Mormons do that, I can see why your mind goes there. It's about two things:

1) How loving is it to let my kid grow up to be a rude, offensive slob who doesn't get promoted or keep friends etc., because people don't respect the way he lives his life? Or is it more loving to care enough to teach him to play nicely with other children? Since I truly believe the opposite of love isn't hate, it's indifference, I can't be indifferent to my kids education.

2) Admittedly, this sounds weird but if you are going to flaunt society's rules, the flaunt them and be proud of yourself for it. Know some people aren't going to accept you and don't care about it. What bugs me is the idea that he seems to think that he doesn't have to do the work to get the respect and that just doesn't compute in the real world. For example, I'm not willing to do the work to be a good Mormon. Mormons don't respect me for it. I don't care. But I don't try to deny the reality of what I'm doing either or what the consequences of my behavior are.

Well, you've been trying to "teach" him. He's not listening. It's sounds like he's telling you that "you don't get it." I've had that conversation with my Mom my entire life. As hard and consistently as she tried, I would never live by her standard or even pay attention to her teaching. I was becoming a different person than her and I went through stages. Isolation, frustration, anger, confusion, rebellion. But I was always thinking about my life, trying to figure out what mattered to me, trying to figure out how to conduct myself and trying to figure out what I wanted from life. I just could not discuss it with her because she corrected all of my juvenile thoughts. She didn't want me to learn how life is. She wanted to be the one to tell me. That wasn't going to happen. She lost the war, but it didn't keep me from paying off her bills, buying her a home, sending her on vacations and making it possible for her to retire.

So, how do you get him to listen to you? How do you change his attitude? How do you help him? How do you get him to stop being a slob and understand he has to earn respect in this life? Some people, like myself, become more obstinate when someone tries to teach us what is right. The more the teacher teaches, the less the student learns. Maybe he is just a slob. Maybe he is a brilliant kid who is figuring out who he is.

If enough people call an orange a manzana, then a manzana is an orange.

I like Lulu's response.

The trouble with Mormon culture is that it enables inappropriate behavior, provided that you play by all the other rules.

To address what volrammos said: The social norms of Mormonism are so skewed...because you get treated not based on how you behave or treat others, but how much you subscribe to the system...how quickly and how high you jump when asked.

Something unusual happened in my life as a Mormon. In my pre-Mormon existence, I drew a lot of people to me. I just have that kind of a personality. The weird thing is, I started out having that effect on the Mormons I met. But then, shortly after I went down into the baptismal waters, they all scattered.

On the other hands, some of the most obnoxious, inept, and sometimes rudest people were surrounded by people at Church. I knew a member who was a recent convert like me...she had FB profiles for each of her three cats and turtle. She would regularly flood other members' FB walls with messages from herself or the animals. I would occasionally write a personal message to members like "hey, I thought about you today...how've you been?" and wouldn't get half the response that the talking animals or their owner got. It's like every communication between every member had to be a show...and if you didn't make a big enough show of saying "hi!" or "I've been thinking about you", then you got ignored.

I played the game, but I did it my way. And I learned fast, and didn't subscribe to the magical thinking. Scriptures, Mormon cultural norms, etc. A lot of times, I was better at their game than even they were...because I started to understand the real reason I was playing.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/22/2012 03:07AM by jezebel2mishies.

UGH, that was one of the things that really pissed me off, especially as a convert.

One guy I knew in the YSA group was a real piece of work. I said hi to him once or twice, or tried to start up a conversation when we were both helping out with a service project. He would look at me, and then just ignore me! Not a single other person in all of the wards I visited was that much of an asshole. I still have no idea what his problem was.

Of course, he was still fawned over because his father was a bishop or something. He went on a mission but came back early, and was still treated like a damn rock star. Last I heard his father had become the stake president.

Hahaha I used to do that as a teenager, too. I was kind of crude at points and wouldn't even hold silverware properly. Once we were driving through Baltimore and saw a slew of homeless people. My mom said, "see, you CAN make a living if you choose to play by no one else's rules but your own! Don't ever let anyone tell you differently!"

For some reason, that scared me sh*tless and my brief rebellious streak towards my parents (at least in public) and on the manners front teetered out pretty quick.

I would ask him who does? It would be interesting to hear his answer.

And btw, just because he says it doesn't make it so. Maybe that's what's bugging you. Mormons have this idea that if they believe something it makes it set in stone. wrong.

Good one, Mia. I'm going to try that. Better than my naranja/manzana example that I was going to use because it's shorter and to the point. Going on and on never works.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/22/2012 11:38AM by CA girl.

and I wouldn't worry about it too much.

As my therapist has told me--communication is about 98% ineffective when speaking--you have to 'act'--He is watching you. And, from what I've read here, he is aware of the good person you are.

I was a single mother--and I didn't have a lot of time to teach them how to work, etc. It is easier to do it yourself. What shocked me was the day I got a text from my daughter in Alaska--the first summer she was there--she was a housekeeper and the bosses loved her. She sent me a text and said, "Thanks for teaching me how to clean." I was like, WTH?--she said, "I was watching."

He is mouthing off because. . .

My kids may have had their problems--but they have hearts of gold and wouldn't hurt a flea--and they are great workers, always are advanced quickly.

Your actions are going to go a lot further than anything you say to him. Just keep being the good mother you are.

Age + his peers + area of country + a lot of other factors.

Societal norms vary quite a bit. But I agree with cl2, your son is exerting his own ideas and seeing what works, and it's a natural step in his maturation.

As we all know, once he enters the workforce, all of his ideas may come crashing down like a ton of bricks. And if he goes into the military - yowee!

Does DS attend with the Normans?

the LDS church treats EVERYONE like juveniles; it's no wonder the people act that way.


just sayin'