One time in Seminary we were having a deep and spiritual lesson, girls were all weepy and some of us guys weren't far behind and it was very quiet as the teacher spoke. Somebody farted obviously by accident and the class broke out in the giggles, and the mood was broken.

In church and in leadership and teacher training we heard all the time about how the mood has to be set in order for the spirit to work in our teaching environment- cottage meetings should only be held in clean and well kept homes, and only certain types of music allow the spirit to be present.

Many times I have heard leaders say that the spirit has fled because of this outburst or that disordered lesson, or cluttered homes of faithful and spiritual members.

If the Holy Ghost according to mormon thought is so fragile and skittish that he will flee and leave the class to the wiles of the adversary when a kid embarrasses themselves to death in a seminary class, how can we possibly know how or if to trust it with our quest for salvation?

To me, it seems that the major fallacy of the church changing the Holy Ghost as the mind and will of God to a third disembodied personage who testifies of truth. He no longer represents the Lord in all of its driving force and bravery, but to simply reassure us if the mood is right that we should follow what we are being told.

Instead of the champion of human nobility, and troublemaker for institutions gone wrong, the Spirit in mormonism is more like the second councilor in the bishopric whose duty is merely to carry out orders from the Bishop and to sit in on properly ordered classes only so long as everyone behaves.

So if somebody farts in class and the mood is broken, either the LDS version of the Holy Ghost has fled in terror or the carefully crafted experience has been disrupted, but the mind and will of God should remain unshaken.

As Packer has said, the difference between and emotion and the witness of the spirit is so close as to sometimes be difficult to differentiate. And that is true- if you lose the spirit over a fart, it was only emotion. If true, then it is safe to assume that the church thrives on the blurring between emotion and spirit and between the feeling of belonging and the true confirmation of the spirit. Perhaps it is wise to question not only church doctrines and history, but to carefully evaluate spiritual experiences to be sure your emotions aren't being manipulated in a controlled environment.

Not only does the Holy Ghost leave, but he leaves when he's needed most. You start that first step toward sin and Bingo! The Holy Ghost is out of there. It's like he only hangs around when he's not really needed that much.

Good point, baura...

I knew an investigator who was a smoker and wanted to join, but didn't have " the gift of the Holy Ghost" to help him quit..

He couldn't have the gift given to him ( the investigator)..

a Catch 22..

and why is the Holy Ghost always a " He"...does it have genitals?

Really big ones...Grande Cajones.

"does it have genitals"

ROTF/LMAO....

So, if anyone without a body cannot experience fulness of happiness, according to mormon doctrine, then how does Holy Ghost know what "fulness of happiness" is? If Holy Ghost know what it is, how does Holy Ghost convey or help anyone feel or experience it, let alone "seal" anyone up unto eternal life, which is "fullness of happiness" (according to Doctrine and Covenants)?

And if this is something Holy Ghost, then how is Holy Ghonst omniscient? And if Holy Ghost is NOT omniscient, how is Holy Ghost eligible to be included in Godhead?

None of these really adds up...at all.

Yes, this line of thinking is a large part of what ultimately led me to conclude that the spirit is nothing more than manipulated human emotion.

An example for me is that I would always "feel the spirit" so strongly with the speakers on the LDS professional circuit - people like Brad Wilcox, Scott Anderson, Kenneth Cope, etc.

However, when I was in church, say in Elder's Quorum the main thing I would usually feel is bored. Even hearing the prophet speak in general conference typically just felt boring.

Other important considerations for me were:
1) There are all these rules of whether the feeling of the spirit is legitimate - basically it is only legitimate if it is in line with the leaders and proves the church true. If the spirit were really so reliable they wouldn't need to make these rules.

2) People in other religions feel the spirit just as strongly. So by counter example the spirit doesn't prove something is true.

3) I hand several personal experiences of strong spiritual feelings that did not pan out. One of many examples was a strong feeling that a teenager of a faithful family in our ward would recover from cancer - he did not.

My conclusion was that the spirit is an emotion.

They are also known as ZZ Top.

... hell, +3 for that!

I'm just confused about a ghost that is 'holy', and everything else added to the idea of this ghost just makes it more and more stupid. The Mormon take on the holy casper ghost is crazy, and the trinity idea of the holy ghost is just one part of the schizophrenic, crazy godhead.

also we need to remember that in the mormon pantheon the holy ghost ranks 3rd.

why in the world should i trust the holy ghost? he never had a body; he would never understand what i'm going through.

if anything, i'd vote for virgin mary. at least she knows what it means to be abducted by an alien, anal probed probably, sent back with a child and with no child support.

For the last year, when I chat with my TBM peeps, I don't hold back with the "still small voice" stories.

I always feel "the spirit". Constantly I have that inkling....that pre-cog. (usually when I'm high as a monkey!)

Anyway, when I chat with them, I put one in when I can.

That way in the future, when they find out I have formally resigned, I can show them the paper that says the holy ghost was pulled from me in 2010.

But....but....but.....

snort.

I'll clear this up for you. The MORmON Holy Ghost is bull shit, as in totally mythical just like the other members of the MORmON godhead. Since The HG does not exist, the HG has NEVER done anything, there for examination of his actions is not possible, let alone needed.

I never got this one. How could the holy ghost be a member of the godhead/trinity? According to Mormon doctrine, the HG is a spirit but how can you be a member of the godhead if he's a spirit? The same with Jehovah, the god of the old testament who Mormons say was Jesus. Again, how can one be a member of the godhead if they haven't been resurrected yet?

But is the HG male or female? Shekinah, Shechinah, Shekina, Shechina, or Schechinah, (Hebrew: שכינה‎) is the English spelling of a grammatically feminine Hebrew word that means the dwelling or settling, and is used to denote the dwelling or settling divine presence of God, especially in the Temple in Jerusalem. Basically, the Spirit of God or the Holy Ghost.

Mormon GAs know it alls say the HG is male and that only Mormons can supposedly have the gift of the HG. Interestingly enough, the world has got along just fine without this fictious Mormon spirit.

I left the church after 30+ years of reading old and rare Mormon books. My spirit guide (not the HG) said in a audible voice to reread a few books and a few new ones. I read day and night for months. One day I finally said out loud, "what does all this mean?" An audible voice said, "you know." I did know. The LDS Church was boloney. And I started laughing as I looked back at the 56 years of my life.

I believe we all have multiple entities that watch over us and help us onto paths of learning. I've learned to respond quickly to their promptings - always with great outcomes. One of the new books I was shown to read: THE JOURNEY OF SOULS. Now one of my favorite books. Get it used on amazon.com
DOC



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/30/2012 01:38AM by doc21hansen.

Bottom burps are of the devil...


I wonder if Bonneville International have a remedy for issues such as back drafting in their Heartsell manipulation methodology?

My daughter refers to him as the wooly ghost.

It seems a little New Agey to confuse the Holy Ghost with, apparently, good vibes.