I joined the church when I was 16, which living in a highly Mormon area with genuinely good members was not hard to do. I'm not resentful or anything, nor do I feel tricked or duped by any of them, but I am genuinely confused. I'm really struggling to understand how so many of those people who I consider (yes, present tense) mentors have the strong and faithful testimonies that they do. These aren't dumb people at all. They're very insightful, unconditionally loving and accepting, and intelligent. Maybe it's just been a while since I've listened to their testimonies or really paid attention to their beliefs, and they really are just good Christians who are okay with being a part of a flawed religion. I don't know, but it's something that I'm struggling with right now and that's confusing for me. Insights? Experiences?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/01/2012 02:35AM by rainwriter.

I can almost hear the crickets :)

Yeah, this is one of those things most of us keep asking ourselves over and over.

We don't know. Many of us don't even understand why we, ourselves, believed it.

I wish I knew. It truly baffles me. My brother is a history buff who knows tons about every time period and yet he is TBM. He loves laughing at historical inaccuracies in movies and yet is blind to the inaccuracies of the BoM?

Everyone I know is TBM and they are all intelligent kind people. It throws me for a loop that all these people I respect are part of such an unrespectable religion.

It's very simple.

It feels good to belong to a well defined community, even if you have some issues with it. It feels bad to imagine disapproval or distance from people in the network of this community. These feelings trump any arguments that could explain them away.

A person needs to be in a major state of negative emotion in order for their skepticism to transcend their need to belong. They need to feel unjust rejection from the community or disgust for some of the core norms of the group.

This is not going to happen unless they fit into a category given by the group that is deemed unacceptable for a reason that the person cannot and does not want to change.

I don't think people can help it. The desire to belong always trumps the desire to pursue conflicting individual interests as long as the perceived costs of dissenting are greater than conforming.

"This is not going to happen unless they fit into a category given by the group that is deemed unacceptable for a reason that the person cannot and does not want to change."


That is exactly right. A large part of me leaving was due to my son. He is bi-racial, white and black. For years I left the black stuff on a shelf and had pretty much decided that I knew and understood more about it than even the prophets. Once my son was turning 8 though I had to take a stand and FIRMLY reject te teachings. There was NO WAY I was going to give my son a religion that taught he was inherently inferior.

So, in my case, your theory is correct. Many in the church don't agree with doctrines but since they do not relate to it directly, they just keep pluging along thinking they will understand it better one day.

I'm impressed. Way to go!

<<A person needs to be in a major state of negative emotion in order for their skepticism to transcend their need to belong. They need to feel unjust rejection from the community or disgust for some of the core norms of the group.>>

Does this also explain why people left normal society and become mormons?

Comfort. People stay in religion for the emotional benefits it brings- often people will try to justify it intellectually, but that doesn't work. Even Mormonism has emotional benefits that keeps people in- feeling a sense of specialness as God's chosen people, a sense of brother/sisterhood with other members (particularly is they hold an "us vs the gentiles" mentality), feeling comforted that there is life after death (and that if they continue doing what they are doing, they will experience a particularly good life after death), having a clear code of conduct to adhere by, often based on things unrelated to real morality, such as wearing garments or abstaining from hot drinks (you get morality points for things that take no effort, awesome!)

Intellectually I am out of religion, but emotionally I still crave the highs it used to give me/ the way it let me not have to think and worry about the problems of life (kids starving in the 3rd world? That's terrible, but if I pray for God to help them, eventually he'll do it. And if he doesn't do it, there's a reason he wants them to suffer awhile longer). But, as you can tell, living that way isn't healthy, so I'm trying to take the high road.

I suppose since it never gave me comfort or a sense of belonging it was easier to see the truth. Also explains why I truly don't understand why people stay.

Don't underestimate the power of indoctrination. And this might make you wonder about converts, but you see they are mostly indoctrinated too. In christianity. If you are indoctrinated to believe in christianity it's but a small step to embrace mormonism, especially as it solves some of the problems with christianity. Those who died without the gospel aren't destined to eternal torture, no mindboggling trinity e.t.c.

There's a reason mormonism is doing so poorly in Asia, people there don't have the underpinnings of christianity so mormonism, that is weird even by christian standards, is extremely bizarre.

The quick answer to the question is "Irrational thinking".

There is a metaphor that we were taught on missions to teach investigators and I think that it applies here. The concept is that if I have an apple pie and I give you a slice of it and the slice tastes good then you have a belief in the WHOLE PIE being good. In reality the whole pie may be flawed. It may be made out of a poision that slowly kills you. It may have dog crap in the other half. You just bought the IDEA that the whole thing is good....and many people are too lazy to search any further because one bite tasted good.

We actually taught it this way on many occasions with success. Unfortunate as that is now because I truly feel bad for teaching anyone about the LDS organization. I feel worse for using such manipulative sales tactics like that where you prey on the vulnerable in society.

It is a false theory but it is easy to get sucked into thinking it may be true.

Reasons? People are on this planet and have a range of emotions that they have to make sense of. Lonely, confusion, sadness, jealousy, anger, joy, emotional well being, euphoria, anxiousness, fear, happiness.
What do you do when you have emotions? Try to understand where they come from and manage them. If you always turn to an invisible man (god) and his buddies (jesus & Holy Ghost) then you create false beliefs in the origination of your emotions. Humans have these same emotions wether god exists or not.

Therefore we accept teachings of spirits and other invisible powers as rational thoughts because of a need to explain our emotions.

In my parents' case the Church keeps them too busy to think.

My parents' free time is so fully used up - my dad is always doing odd jobs and fixing things for other members and various church property. He's always fussing over minutes of meetings and emails. My mother is obsessed with the 'flower rota' which means, at her own expense, she has to spend several days a month creating arrangements for the family history centre, the local church and other places I don't know a lot about anymore.

However, I have to say, they are two very fit 60 year olds. They seldom get coughs and colds, they know lots of people. My mum knows all about the latest youth crazes through her contact with young members. Even my TBM sister gets the grumps that they spend so much time and money on things outside the family.

You know what? Sometimes I wonder if they really do. For me it was definitely comfort and a sense of belonging. But when I look back now, I realize that I spent my entire 30 years in the Church questioning things. I struggled to keep my belief going.

When I left, the first thing one of my friends said was, "Well you know you never did believe in God." It shocked me. I replied, "What?! What are you talking about? Then why did I spend 30 years + as a religious person?"

She just said, "No, you never did." She recognized that about me, even if I didn't recognize it about myself until I finally had the courage to leave.

That brings me to another point. For people who were born in the Church, it's what they were raised to believe and they usually have way too much to lose if they leave. It really does take courage to leave. Maybe some feel it isn't worth the risk to thoroughly study the truth, because they'd lose too much if they came to really know that it was all just an illusion.

There is a man here who is a partner in one of the largest law firms in the World. He has been a Bishop and a Stake President. He seems to be absolutely solid in his testimony. But one day, he said to that same friend who told me I never believed in God, "All of this, "The Church is the only true church," stuff is bologna. It's not."

She was shocked. I was too. I thought he was an absolutely solid TBM. But he's so entrenched in the Church that it would probably mean too much of a disruption to his life if he ever rocked the boat and announced that he didn't truly believe it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/01/2012 08:59AM by Greyfort.

Certainly, since there are smart people in all religions, it is no indicator that any one religion is true.

Religious belief is based on feelings and emotions, not intellect. When it comes to religion most people don't use the logical side of their brains. They simply "emotion" their way in to believing. The church knows this that's why he BofM tells you to pray about it. That's also why they use guilt and fear to control you. It's all emotion.

We can convince ourselves of all sorts of bogus things when we want them to be real. And we can deny the reality of all sorts of things when we don't want them to be true. Delusion and denial have nothing to do with intelligence or insightfulness.

+1 Excellent description.

They are the only individuals in the church who accepted me after I left. Some told me why they still believe and/or remain in the church and here are a few of their reasons:

One, who is active participant in Sunstone and Dialogue, told me she wants to affect a change in the church from within.

Another told me she wants to remain for cultural reasons because this is the only way of life she's ever known and she's scared to live a different way.

Two others, a couple, told me they can't explain away the feeling of what they perceive to be the spirit.

Surprisingly or not, each of these individuals lives outside the Moridor and/or grew up in a different state than Utah.

I'm not sure, but I think I have noticed that a signifigant number of dissenters and exmos are introverted. Those who do not establish vital and needed social connections with people at church and have an internalized system of truth often find themselves more in conflict with the percieved falsehoods, and that takes precedence over the social attraction of the organization. At least it's true for me.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/01/2012 10:15AM by rationalguy.

Don't know about you, but as a TBM, and from the time I was a small child, I was taught by well-meaning family and friends that the LD$ church was "the ONLY true church on earth."

(They still teach that, don't they?)

So, dumb or smart or somewhere in between, it's not easy to let go of that notion. In fact, it makes you feel pretty damn good. And if you add some warm fuzzies along the way, you can be hooked for life.

As a female I felt second class and insulted, and a step further away from HF than a man got to be. I truly don't understand why other females would not feel the same. The responses given above are insightful.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/01/2012 10:49AM by suckafoo.

And you usually have no idea which of those intelligent believers you know are struggling mightily to keep the house of cards from collapsing.

for their beliefs, whether they are right or wrong.

Studying Buddhist philosophy I learned that emotions are not the problem, it is IDENTIFYING with negative emotions and situations that causes difficulty.

Many people have identified so strongly as a member of "God's One True Church on Earth" that they experience identity crisis whenever they read facts which contradict what they have been taught as Mormons.

They come here and ask, "Who am I if I am not Mormon?" They are like a vine without a trellis. They never needed their own spine to stand up straight.

A religion that submerges your individuality to that degree is what the "I Am A Mormon" ads are supposed to address. They present an image of successful, highly individuated, admirable people who announce, to our surprise, that they are Mormons.

No organization spends the kind of bucks these ads cost without being very, very focused on the message: Mormonism isn't just for losers.

Who said Mormonism substituted itself for a real life of your own? WE DID AND ARE.

We are winning the battle for the hearts and minds of America. It is the Anti-Mormon Moment.

Anagrammy

So true, Ana. I really went through an identity crisis of, "Who am I, if not Mormon?" when I left. Maybe that's just one of the reasons we all congregate here. The folks here understand that.

There has been something of a brain drain the past couple of decades. In my own ward, where I grew up, and in the neighboring ward that split off from us, nearly all of the most capable priesthood leaders who held important callings in the 1990s has resigned. The same is true of many of the important female personalities from that same unit, though the Church's habit of pushing them to the background makes their departure slightly less noticeable.

The point is, when you talk about intelligent people in the church, it is becoming less and less common.

For the same reason millions of human beings believe in dozens of religions by faith. It's also their generational familial traditions in many cases.
Religion is not based on factual evidences to be valid. It's metaphysical, supernatural, visionary claims predominately that are accepted and believed by faith.
Wise to remember those basic facts about religion and how it works.

Good Christians? I think not. They exclude and not include- example - weddings. They shun, they ignore people who don't join when asked to. Good Christians? No way. They are sheeple. They are brainwashed to be the ones who proclaim such riteousness-clean living, good morals, etc. and are far from it. They don't cheat on spouses, they don't smoke, drink? Yeah, right. I knew 8 boys in my daughter's senior class who were Mormon and they were BAD boys all the way. But not to their mommy's and not to their bishop who let them get away with what all they did.

For what it's worth, these set of people who I considered/consider mentors really are the "good christian" type.

I've wondered if it's just that sense of belonging and helping that keeps them there, that they feel like the good still has the potential to be very powerful despite the issues.

In my experience (not that I am so intelligent) it is quite simple... compartmentalization and family and social belonging.

I have some brilliant people in my ward who have shared some doubts on doctrine, but simply don't let it bother them. I don't see how it is possible to have doubt about doctrine and not question the origons of the TSCC, but they don't.

Also let's face it, the binds of family and social belonging are the heaviest chains to breaking free. No one wants to hurt family members or risk their circle for friends, but when you reach that breaking point you do it-but that is what hurts the most.

Throw employment/career connections into the mix and it gets even tougher.

How do lawyers for example not come to the conclusion that the TSCC is hiding information from members? They are training to think critically and yet simply compartmentalize doubt and full-on disbelief.

Where else is there to go in an entity that claims it is the ONLY TRUE CHURCH?

DT

Most Mormons today have been raised in the religion. Look around the world and 99% of the people remain what they were born into. 99% of Muslims had Muslim parents. 99% of Jews have Jewish parents. 99% of Christians have Christian parents. Most people who are Republican have Republican parents. Most people who are Democrats have Democrat parents. It's simply how they were raised.

It's in human nature to remain loyal to your "tribe" or "team." Humans in general are also very biased and proud and. They don't easily accept things that go against how they been raised to believe.

....there are plenty of smart people on both sides. I think it is a question of intellectual honesty. All it takes is failure to suppress those moments of honesty a few times and here we are....