Getting close to "coming out" to the wife and I don't want to get ahead of myself but I like to have a game plan. I know marriages can survive in dual belief but I certainly would like to eventually be united. I believe in freedom to believe what one wants now more than ever so I plan on respecting her rights as well. My problem is thay my male views are prohibiting me from understanding what issues or items of research might help open her mind. So I pose the question to the ladies: what did it for you? I appreciate any topics or books you could recommend. (fellas, feel free to contribute as well) Thanks!

It's always polygamy for the ladies. They HATE it. I suggest buying Mormon Enigma, a bio of Emma Smith, which goes heavily into Joseph's plural wifery. It shows the struggles Emma had to deal with and it shows how sleazy Joe's affairs were, but the book also comes off as scholarly and NOT anti. I would leave this book laying around the house for your wife and/or remark about about how good of a book it is.

What did it for a friend of mine was that she was trying to 'prove' to her exmormon children that the anti things they were saying were not true.
Approach your wife the same way in saying you have been doing some studying to disprove some things your colleagues have said and are having a difficult time with some of the things they are actually correct about. Study some of these things with her and I really agree with Ex-CultMember in that the polygamy thing is detestable to the ladies. I left a book lying around, In Sacred Lonliness by Todd Comptom, that my wife eventually read and that was the beginning.

I'd ask and say the following:

How do you know the church is true? The spirit? The feeling in your heart? God tells you with feelings you know it's true. If I have gut feeling I'm winning the lottery do I? Do emotions convey truth? You think you know what you believe but you only believe what you feel.

I'd show her why you left after.

I read different things on the unbiased wikipedia which opened my mind. I also showed my husband what I found on wikipedia because he was not willing to look at anti stuff. He trusted wiki and so did I.
A few good wiki pages are
kinderhook plates
Wives of joseph smith
Book of abraham
Origins of book of mormon
Book of mormon archaeology
Blood oaths
Mason temple and lds temple ceremony
Prophesies of joseph smith
Just read her the joseph smith wikipedia page and it talks about the treasure hunting and jail time. Translation of BOM and many other jems.

For me, as soon as I found out that Joseph married 14 year olds, I knew he was not a man of god. Him marrying already married women sealed the deal.

However, this info had no effect on my mom. She believe more than ever. It's hard to know what might start the cracking of the shelf.

Also, Brigham's racists quotes were more than I could handle. Again, my mom saw nothing wrong with them.

You know your wife best and so you really should think about what issues would be unacceptable to her. Think about what she's passionate about and what she's sensitive about. Then find facts that appeal to that. The church is wrong from every angle so you have plenty to choose from.

If she loves science-DNA
If she loves history-church history and BoM inaccuracies
If she lOves language-linguistic problems of BoM
If she hates racism-just a couple of Brigham quotes will do it
If she hates cheaters-the truh of Joseph's polygamy
If she hates sexual predators--show how the first 6 prophets married young girls as old men

And so on and so forth

Whatever tactic you try, ask her to keep it just between yourselves. If she panics and runs to the bishop or TBM family you will become a project and object of scorn. They may even support her in a decision to leave you.

Good luck!

Caedmon, I like this idea and I think that I will try it this way. Still a bit concerned that she will see it as I am trying to keep "secret combinations" and she'll still go running. Many have suggested that dropping concerns over time is the way to go but she'd sniff out my real intentions to defect immediately so if she can agree that mum is the word for a while the process will be a lot better. Thanks for the advice.

To me the weight of the information because overwhelming. You just can't explain it all away. The multiple, conflicting First Vision accounts, the changes to the Book of Mormon and its dubious origin on top of Joseph Smith's polygamy/polyandry, just leads to a really different picture of the founder of the Mormonism. The religion falls because of its founder.

What worked for us is that we never had a specific plan to exit or to get the other person out. Instead, we'd just discuss what we were reading in the scriptures and hearing in church with our critical thinking skills turned on. After several years (yes, extreme patience may be necessary) of long Sunday afternoon conversations centered on "Can you believe the bishop actually said..." and "How can that be reconciled with what we just read in...?" my partner and I were in the same deeply skeptical place. At that point we had kids and it was obvious that it would be deeply wrong of us to raise our kids to be LDS.

A word of caution: most active Latter-day Saints, even those who quietly express a lot of skepticism about LDS teachings, are nowhere near ready to take the leap out of the church. I suspect that, more often than not, trying to give friends and family members even a gentle nudge will backfire and create a lot of conflict. Openly discussing your doubts, but fully respecting the autonomy of your partner/friend/family member ("We should both believe whatever makes most sense to us and not try to pressure each other either way") may be the best path.

I don't know if I'm an anomaly, but I came around after reading the books by Bart Ehrman:

http://www.bartdehrman.com/books.htm

I finally began to question the doctrine of the church and the "inspiration" of the leadership that so misunderstood the origins and actual meaning of the Biblical text.

The next big chink in the armor was the changing of church materials trying to recreate history and denying that there was ever anything different.

Then, just reading the primary sources.

Give her time to discuss and learn. It is a slow process.

On a related note, does anybody have some good links to some good church source information on some of these issues. Like many, I am very concerned that she will see and hard to swallow info as anti-Mormon. I'm trying to compile some source data links for my journey blog MoNoMoInUT(dot)blogspot(dot)com. Thanks!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/09/2012 09:21AM by monomoinut.

Ask your wife to list the things the Mormon Gospel has that makes it unique. Then ask her to show you those things in the Book of Mormon. Job done.

He would mock stupid things as the opportunity arose, including my incessant guilt ("yeah, you're just a horrible person because you were two minutes late for church . . . if you REALLY loved God, you would have been 15 minutes early"). He also mocked long RS meetings "what do you TALK about for two hours, anyway". He would point out "make work" types of projects (elaborate place-setting favors for homemaking dinners). He asked why on earth toddlers were supposed to sit quiet in an adult meeting (sacrament meeting) when it was not developmentally appropriate. And he would point out that NOBODY really wanted their Visit Teachers to come, anyway, so why bother.

He loves science, and would talk to me about stuff like evidence for evolution. And he'd talk about impossible things in the Bible, like the Noah story.

Tread lightly when it comes to Mormon doctrine, though. That will get defenses up and she won't listen.

One thing, through it all, he never put pressure on me to change my beliefs. He was just being himself and planting little seeds. When I was ready to question, it was because it wasn't working for ME anymore.

Dear wife, do you believe that as long as I know the secret handshakes etc, I will get in to the Celestial Kingdom even though I have broken all my covenants?

"Of course not."

Do you believe that, even though I have kept all my covenants, I will be excluded from the Celestial Kingdom because I cannot remember the secret handshakes etc?

"Of course not."

Then what's the point of having the secret handshakes etc?

"*crickets*"

I don't know if you've seen mine and my husband's story. It went down last summer. He came out at the end of June, right before our oldest son's wedding. I followed him three weeks later.

Polygamy and the blacks not holding the priesthood always bothered me. Those were two things I could get my teeth into. Have you asked your wife if anything about church doctrine doesn't sit well with her? If not, you might start there. If she says nothing does, then maybe ask, "Not even polygamy?"

If she agrees that polygamy does, you can start there. My husband (sithlord), showed me JS's family history on familysearch.org, showing the wives of JS and their ages. I thought it must have been a mistake. He also told me that some of the women were already married. I couldn't believe it. That got me googling the subject on my own, and reading his biography written by Lucy Mack Smith.

The rest is history, and that's just the tip of the iceberg.

Good luck!

Have her read D&C 132. That is what shocked my wife into reality. The blatant lies all in the name of sex.

Here's a game plan:

1) At first do not focus a single bit on getting her to realize it is false. Focus completely on reassuring her that your relationship is still on solid footing.

Her first concern is going to be for the relationship and what it means to her. She is going to deal with some very real grieving (my wife still is 14 months after I told her.) She is going to fear that now that the church isn't forcing you to stay you are going to drop her like a rock. She is going to fear now that God isn't forcing you to be chaste you are going to have affairs.

Make sure she feels loved and safe first and foremost. Anything else you do will just create walls.

2) Your focus should be your wife being willing to listen and consider things. It's not about whether sufficient evidence exists it's about whether she is open to looking at it.

One key is that she needs to feel like you are not attacking and she is defending her faith. If that is the dynamic it takes, game over, she isn't going to listen to anything.

One potential approach that is probably the most likely to be successful is getting her and you to look at the issues together to make a decision. Secretly or maybe not even secretly she will hope that by looking at the issues together she can convince you that the church is true and get you back in. Don't shut the door so tight on your belief that she has no hope that you could start believing again - otherwise she has no incentive to look at things.

Make it you and your wife on one team against the evidence. Read everything critically. Play devils advocate. Challenge the "lies & mean things" said objectively. Actively look for any answers apologists and the church gives. Offer potential answers to problems/concerns. In the end the evidence is overwhelming. (Apologists are people who try to show the church is or may be true - e.g. FAIR & Jeff Lindsay).

Note: Do your research if apologists seem to have satisfactory answers. One thing that happens quite often is apologists seem to have answers at a surface to the problems - they throw up a good smokescreen. For example if you don't know the details about the Book of Abraham translation apologists can make it appear that it could be viable. It's when you go to the next level or maybe the 3rd or 4th level of detail that it all falls apart. Don't accept the easy surface answers on either side.

If you are questioning the existence of God don't go this route as an argument. She isn't going to be ready to consider this right off the bat in it may shut down her willingness to look at the problems of the church.

If you approach things right you can have an open dialogue where she tells you areas that she already has doubts and concerns. It would be with the approach of looking at those areas to attempt to find answers and resolutions.

3) The hard part is getting to this step and not taking it prematurely. If you can actually get your wife to honestly look at the issues the information will speak for itself.

Here are some helpful resources:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ac_fLUHiBw

http://20truths.info/

mormonthink.com

wivesofjosephsmith.org

http://www.theamateurthinker.com/2011/02/how-can-we-find-truth-part-4/

http://www.michaelshermer.com/weird-things/excerpt/

http://www.bookofabraham.com/boamathie/BOA_1.html

Essentially here are what I see as the main evidences:
1) Joseph Smith's and polygamy/polyandry/teenage marriages.
2) The first vision was made up 15 years after and had many problems with consistency.
3) The Book of Abraham was a sham
4) The Book of Mormon is a sham
5) The temple ceremony is a plagiarism of Masonry



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/09/2012 11:55AM by bc.

Thanks for the suggestions and insight everyone. It is very appreciated. Wish me luck.

I just wanted to say that I feel for ya. I was in your shoes just a few months ago. It's not a fun place to be in. Someone here gave the advice that honesty is the best currency in a marriage so that's what I've been trying to live by. And I'm happy to say its been hard but in many ways brought us closer together. She still chooses to believe but can understand why I can not. Because I showed her what did it for me, which was the YouTube vid. "The Lost Book of Abraham" which was the tip of the iceberg and then mountains of evidents in any other area of choosing. Any way I told her about the emotions I went through while discoving the truth about tscc. First devastation, then anger, but eventually a freedom I never knew exsisted. My advise is if you go into this with the hopes of helping her "see the light" you may come out of it feeling frustrated not to mention her putting up a defensive wall. but if you go into this with the goal of her understanding what YOU are feeling and why YOU can no longer believe. Then you both can feel good about respecting each others beliefs. Plus at the same time it will expose her to some info that could eventually help her to accept the truth about tscc. Good luck to ya buddy! You have a valuable tool in coming here. I'm assuming a good head on your shoulders if you've figured out the truth and accepted it yourself. And it sounds like you love your wife. To me, you've got what you need to get through this difficult time.

I am so glad you came here for advice because many Mormons make serious mistakes due to the fact of their own brainwashing. It will be years before you have pulled all the foreign shrapnel out of your personality, that's how damaging the brainwashing is.

In normal American culture, in a good marriage, a spouse will immediately share a concern, even if the implications are grave. One will say to another, "I'm worried that Johnny isn't smiling like he used to. He seems less responsive lately. Am I being silly with my concerns about autism what with Mary Jo's little boy?" The couple are lovers, best friends, and can talk about anything without fear.

Yet the same spouse who learns that Joseph Smith absolutely DID have 33 wives, committed adultery with the maid, asked his friends to give them their children for his sexual pleasure "lest he be removed from his position or suffer death," pseudo-married women who were already married and had sex with them, the wives of friends he sent on missions, etc.... will NOT share those discoveries promptly with a spouse. Instead, most striking, will secretly continue a path of investigation without breathing a word of it to their wife. Why?

After months or even years of this, they have a divided persona. Inside, they’ve become a person of a completely different belief regarding the sacred Restored Gospel. Outwardly, they put on the same permanent semi-smile and flat affect with guilt easily bringing the necessary tears on Fast & Testimony Sunday.

This is a lonely position. You can’t tell anyone who you really are. Some find the NOM community and form friendships there. The spouse has no idea why her former best friend seems distant lately. She wonders if he is having an affair, then laughs. He couldn’t do that, he’s the (fill in his calling).

They come to RfM wanting tips on how to now include their wife in their intense personal journey.

The fact that you took two steps down that path without your spouse is a sign of your own brainwashing that the church is more important than your marriage. You were taught that it is important to have/keep secrets. You were bonded to the church first in your temple marriage, and then to your spouse conditionally "as they keep the laws and ordinances of the gospel." There is tremendous guilt planted by the church toward those who even question in their own minds.

The truth is that secrets in a marriage are sometimes necessary. Another self is quite a different thing. If you are a doubting Mormon reading this, share your doubts and concerns with your wife immediately, just as you would any other serious concern. Let her walk beside you as you research and question further.

If you have been on a path of discovering the truth and have come to a conclusion, like the OP, and now are wondering what to do. If you tell your spouse you have journeyed without her, she will feel left out and defensive. It really is not fair to spring this on her suddenly. It's one thing to tell your husband, "I think I'm pregnant" and another to just hand him a newborn. A spouse needs a chance to adjust.

Mormonism is a lifestyle of being a tool for a higher purpose. Stopping being a tool involves recognizing that you have been used and were taught to disrespect others by using them. This is obvious in the missionary program where young men are taught to tell outright lies and partial truths to get people to convert, to benefit him by making him looks more spiritual. Is spirituality connected to number of converts? Of course not.

The result is an amoral "the end justifies the means" value system.

To bring your wife to where you are, you should go back to where you departed from full confidence with her. Tell her the first thing you read that gave you pause. "You remember back when that young boy was excommunicated," you might say, "it really bothers me that the young girl was not treated the same. Did that bother you?"

And have a low key discussion about gender differences.

Then mention your next one, "You will not believe what I found on Family Search...Joseph Smith married 33 women! Emma was apparently just the first and he just kept adding. Stop there. Don’t say he screwed teenagers, let her find out the gory details."

IF SHE WANTS TO KNOW MORE, then the two of you can google "wives of Joseph Smith" and see a chart on Wikipedia. If she is wanting to pursue it, go the website—www.wivesofjosephsmith--but only if she is interested in learning more. If not, you have to just let the information marinate.

And believe me, it will. Polygamy is the hot topic because it's the "reward" Mormons are all working toward in their eternal life.

Best of luck and do keep us posted. We are all rooting for you!

Anagrammy

>>>If you are a doubting Mormon reading this, share your doubts and concerns with your wife immediately, just as you would any other serious concern. Let her walk beside you as you research and question further.

Exactly!