This morning I had to drop off my nieces at my brothers house. His wife decided to take advantage of the opportunity to tell me how " worried" my entire family is about me. And then asked me who had offended me. Like I would leave my religion, my culture, and my heritage because someone hurt my feelings?? I think there is a hole in my tongue from biting back sarcastic retorts. I got a loving lecture about the " second coming" and the pitfalls of sin. Seriously? She then wanted to know why I have been absent from all family functions & communication. I know, I know: it is a mystery.....

It's not just me, right? I'm thinking these folks are batshit crazy and aggressively trying to reel me, guilt me back in. Do normal people talk like this? I mean, is this normal conversation for the rest of the world? After so long in the cult, I don't even know what "normal" behavior is anymore.... It's not just me, is it?

Guilt is the language of all religion.

"Joseph Smith offended me when I found out the truth about his sex life."

That should shut them up for good.


Anagrammy

not just his sex life, his whole spin on reality

"Joseph Smith offended me when I found out the truth about his sex life."

Anagrammy's idea would get them talking:

"Apparently ambivalent was offended by finding out the truth about Joseph Smith's sex life."

"Joseph Smith's sex life? Whatever could that mean? We'd better look this up on the internet."

"Let's see...it says here that he...oh dear. Then he...my goodness. And he even had...well, I never. I really had no idea! I can see why someone would be offended. Well, we'd better turn off the computer and get going or will be late for sacrament meeting."

I do believe this is exactly what I will say next time.

I like to respond with: "Why do you assume I was offended? Are Mormons really that offensive?"

I really think we should all turn it right back at them by asking them why they find Mormons so offensive. As in "why do you assume I was offended? Do you really find Mormons that offensive? Because you must think Mormons are awful if you think I'd change my beliefs and my values, leave my culture and heritage behind and start over from scratch just to get away from them. And, what bothers me, is that your mind went right there - to condemning Mormons for their offensiveness. That's REALLY and anti-Mormon frame of mind. I may not agree with their beliefs or lifestyle, but I don't think they are as offensive as you seem to."

Seriously, right back at them.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/09/2012 03:31PM by CA girl.

Start talking directly. If you do, they'll think twice about crossing your boundaries.

"I'm not a wuss. I wouldn't let someone else determine the course of my eternal life by their offensiveness. The reason I no longer attend is that I no longer believe, and I have very good reasons for that." (and you can choose if you wish to discuss it or not).

"However, as far as the family stuff goes, I'm needed some space. We've wanted to avoid conversations like THIS one, where people make assumptions about our character and motives and where they express fear or make threats about the future. Would YOU want to hang out with people who look down on you and talk about you behind your back?"

You don't have to listen to her lectures or testimonies, or anything else. Just say "Stop, I've heard this before and I don't need to hear it again. Remember: I don't believe this stuff anymore."

imaworkinonit Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Start talking directly. If you do, they'll think
> twice about crossing your boundaries.
>
> "I'm not a wuss. I wouldn't let someone else
> determine the course of my eternal life by their
> offensiveness. The reason I no longer attend is
> that I no longer believe, and I have very good
> reasons for that." (and you can choose if you
> wish to discuss it or not).
>
> "However, as far as the family stuff goes, I'm
> needed some space. We've wanted to avoid
> conversations like THIS one, where people make
> assumptions about our character and motives and
> where they express fear or make threats about the
> future. Would YOU want to hang out with people
> who look down on you and talk about you behind
> your back?"
>
> You don't have to listen to her lectures or
> testimonies, or anything else. Just say "Stop,
> I've heard this before and I don't need to hear it
> again. Remember: I don't believe this stuff
> anymore."


That's what freed me from social stuff that felt awful.
I started to respond directly by saying that I don't believe it.

Then, if they wish to pursue a conversation, it has to be formatted in a style that will be uplifting to me or there's no reason for me to participate in it - or at least have some kind of structure - not one where they give a laundry list of shame tactics while I give zero response to take care of my self in the conversation. For me, to engage in a conversation they have to be willing to start reading the first page of mormonthink.com and Richard Packham's articles, and then we can discuss what they've read page by page. If they aren't' interest in doing that then I'm not interested in a conversation discussing myself in relation to beliefs of mormonism.

If the conversation goes back to the yucky format I remind them that I don't believe what they're saying and then refer back to engaging them with mormonthink.com topics as a platform to have discussions from.
For example, if they say, "but you had a testimony and believed" I will have them read mormonthink.com testimony section as a place to describe what I have to say, and then talk about it.

I once had someone say that they wanted me to say it in my own words. I replied that I will explain it with my own words after they read the information article I recommend from mormonthink, because it would take me hours to verbalize what can be read in 5 minutes in an article. Then after that I'd be willing to talk about it in my own words.

Doing the above example during conversations has given me a strength I didn't know existed. It's replaced angry emotions (for the most part with a few exceptions with the missionary's) with a strength of calmness during conversations. I'm now able to state my opinions without fear of offending them.

In hindsight I realize that many times I wouldn't engage in conversations because I was afraid of offending people and afraid the conversation would be one-sided for them.
It's funny now when I think about it... I have often been asked if someone offended me and yet by my lack of engaging in a conversation it was me who was afraid of offending them and causing more problems.

Practicing it gave me strength to engage in more conversations and to stand up and express my own thoughts and opinions and experiences about the things they were preaching. Gradually any fear of offending in a conversation (on my part) was gone and replaced with an open interest in communicating.

Try it...it's very liberating and empowering.
Especially if you tell them that you love them and will respect their choices no matter what they believe. If it's appropriate to your personality, give them a hug and a big smile and tell them you love them no matter what.
When I first did that it wasn't meant to throw them off, it was intended as a real expression of how I felt in the relationship, but it completely threw the person off. You see, mormon doctrine does NOT come from love. I repeat, it does NOT come from love and it is not preached at the core from love. It comes from fear and then coercion to obey. Love doesn't worry so much about being right, or fearful, in the context which Mormons preach and teach and live the obedience messages.
Any friend I've done that to has not known how to respond because they aren't familiar with that level of love.

When I was a kid I was told to bear my testimony (even though I didn't have one) and that by repeating it I would gain one. It really did work. I was able to convince myself that what I was saying was true. Eventually that program fell away because at the core there was no truth to bind it, and that's when the REAL truth rose up when I gave it enough room to breathe.

It's interesting that when I allowed myself to do exactly what they told me, only in connection with my questions and disbelief, I was able to express my questions and disbelief enough verbally to become very strong. Eventually combining that with coming from a place of love is a very wonderful place. Funny that I applied the very technique that the mormons told me and it worked against them and not for them.

Apparently the people asking about offenses just go for the social kudos.

Just when does TSCC begin teaching this line of BS? I agree, it's time to come up with something new TBM's. I've been asked this myself by family members. Since ALL the TBM's say this, I'm just wondering where they pulled it out of their @ss exactly. Was it in primary? Maybe someone can cite a lesson that talks about this, I don't know. But ya, I'm sick of it too. It doesn't even really make any sense.

There are fables about this, even spouted from the pulpit in GC. Like the one about a man who supposedly quit the church because they spelled his name wrong.

I was going to say...I bet we can trace this back to some dumb@ss GC talk. I'm curious to see if there's a lesson about this too though. It almost seems like it was implanted by a brain washing technique directly into the morgbots brains. Like it's an automatic download the minute you become a member.

I agree. GREAT example.

WOW. I actually had a CHRISTIAN ask me this about the church. My response? "I dont give a damn about the people, it was the doctorines that offended me."

Yeah, sure. It's not that I actually researched this or anything. No, I threw away my eternal soul based on the bad behavior of some individual. That's the only thing it could have been. lol

'Milk strippings' may get you closer to the original 'offended' meme, where a lady is reported to have thrown away her salvation over some cream.
The true version of that story was actually mormon theft of more than just a little cream off the top anyways, but that's how they will tell it.
Besides which, in a frontier setting in the first year or two, the calories lost from a theft like that COULD be quite important, but the whole story is spun as throwing away eternity over something very minor.

I think this way of thinking is reinforced by this:

The inactive Mormons who are reactivated and come back are much more likely to be the ones who were offended.

If you believe it is a fraudulent, harmful organization how likely are you to return?

On the other hand if you are still believe in and love the church but were offended you are much more likely to return if someone comes to you with an olive branch.

So the very small percentage of people who leave because they were offended are the very most responsive people to returning to activity if someone reaches out to them.

Thus part of the reason that Mormons think looking for an offense is the best way to get people to come back.

---------------

If someone asked me this question my response may be:

No one had until now. However, I find your question to be very offensive to assume that is the reason I left.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/09/2012 02:52PM by bc.

It's just funny how TBM's regurgitate "facts" they heard from other TBM's without a thought or care in the world about whether it's actually true or not. Hell, I did it myself when I was a member so I know it's not only easy to do, but that it's done quite often. The faith promoting stories are what got me because I'm a very sensitive person. So maybe no real "lesson" was ever needed. It's more likely that word of mouth is what created the "who offended you?" frenzy.

p.s. I'm deeply offended by the smell of Cheerios in the chapel lol. Also having to wear nylons and long skirts.

How about nylons with short skirts? If I was God, that would be the most pleasing means of dressing for me.

Though I should clarify, I am speaking about the women. No one wants to see Tommy Monson is a short skirt and stockings. Though that might be one heck of a Halloween costume for anyone still trying to come up with something.

If I ever meet you, I'm going to dress like I'm from Colorado city :P

This is so true Tupperwhere. My mom tried that "the main reason people leave is because they were offended" crap on me and I asked her to name all the people she knew that had left the church and told her to her face it was because someone offended them or hurt their feelings. The first few examples she gave were the infamous "friends of friends". I asked if they told HER or if she was repeating the story second hand. She was only able to come up with one person. So I asked her "Mom, 65 percent of the people listed on the membership rolls are inactive and in 35 plus years of church membership, you have only had one person tell you to your face they left the church because they were offended. Doesn't that tell you something?"

She hasn't brought that subject up with me in a while, though I wouldn't put it past her to try again once she's forgotten I bested her last time.

Here's how a normal conversation would go:

YOU: "Here I am dropping off my nieces at my brother's house. We had a good time with them. Here are their sweaters, though we didn't need them. It isn't going to rain until Friday, but the days are getting colder, now. Aren't the fall colors beautiful! The girls were telling me about your Halloween plans, bla-bla."

SIL: "Thank you for having them over to your house. They seem to have had a good time! They always ask to go over to Aunt Tupperwhere's house. It was fun for us to have some time together without the kids. We even watch the Presidential debates together--what did you think of the debates? How about those Utes? Have you seen the Avenger's movie? The girls like school, and they are taking piano lessons, and soccer...bla-bla."

YOU: "The nieces are growing and getting more mature, and interesting, every day, and we are looking forward to getting everyone together for Thanksgiving, and we need to make plans for that, and I have a new zucchini recipe, and there are so many interesting things to talk about--but I need to rush off, now."

SIL: "I have to get busy, too, but I will call you tomorrow, about Book Club or whatever." Thanks again for being such a good person, and for watching your nieces."

Well, you asked what "normal" is.

I went to lunch the other day, with some friends I had worked with for several years. We honestly didn't know what each other's religion was, because the subject simply had not come up. One lady mentioned that her church was having a big group yard sale, so the subject of her church came up. She said that she had just switched churches, after they moved, and they liked the new church better than the old one. Another lady said that she had also attended the same church, and she liked it, too, but that she had switched to another church for their youth program. Another lady said, "We just go whatever church is closest to our house, and has the most convenient meeting time." It is NORMAL for people to change religions, as their circumstances change. No one gasped. No one accused anyone. No one questioned anyone, and the conversation moved on.

I really enjoy the people I spend time with, these days!

That's a good point, bc. Now that I think about it, I do remember some people leaving because someone offended them and they were the ones who were later talked into coming back.

I guess if that's what the TBMs encounter, then they assume it's the same for everyone.

Someone who leaves because they've discovered it's all a fraud isn't likely to go back. You can't unlearn the truth you now know.

there is really some other underlying reason for wanting to quit anyway and the offense is either the last straw that puts them over the edge or it gives them a reason for leaving that they can blame on others, rather than admit what the real problem was.

It's a strange response when you think about it. It implies the opposite is what keeps people in the church and doesn't even open up the possibility that the church is demonstrably false.

"Ha-ha-ha! That's such a joke! You're such a silly goose retelling that old mormon wive's tale about 'who offened you. Ha-ha-ha!"

"You mean besides you asking that question?"

Q: "Who offended you?"

A: "You, with that question."