Not political -- on the Ron Paul 2012 Facebook page, over 500 comments in the last hour -- they asked, do you think Mitt Romney is Christian ...

I know he believes in Jesus Christ as his Savior. There are a lot of Christian factions that seem to think they have a monopoly on how that is to be done & like to point out that some else is doing it all "wrong" -- which is a bunch of hog wash in my view!.:-)
Besides, who cares if he is a Christian or not?
For all the lip service we hear about religious rights, it's time to stop quibbling and let it go!

That is a gross oversimplification. That's like the LDS people who say, well Jesus Christ is in our name, so obviously we're a Christian religion. Mormonism is Christ as filtered through Joseph Smith....which changes it into something Entirely Different. The theology is not the same at all. You need to actually compare the theologies. Catholics and Protestants overlap a lot on a the big Venn Diagram of religious philosophies. Mormons are way off in another area with a lot of overlap with FLDS.

It's great that Americans are talking about this. Most have no idea what Mormonism really is. See the Lying for The Lord article by R. Joseph Hoffman that was linked here yesterday...one of many reasons given lately for why religion does matter in this particular case.

Tell you what, SQ#1:

When religions stop trampling on MY rights, I'll think about letting it go regarding THEIR rights.

Or maybe you should just rethink your pithy one-liners about living and letting live, since you SO don't do that IRL.

Mormons reject the Nicene Creed.

Mormons are very close to Arian in some ways but their Christology is not the same as Arius preached.

I'd say the above plus the fact that they RARELY actually worship Jesus Christ would overall give them the categorical definition of "baarely hanging on by their toenails" with regard to being "Christian" as most N. American Christians would define it.

We're not voting for a religious leader. We're voting for a president.

I have to wonder, though, given his Mormon background, if Romney's big mysterious plan for creating 12,000,000 new jobs is going to turn out to be a multi level marketing scheme?

Bwahahaha! An MLM Lmao! That tickled me pink.

lol yup. All we have to do is give 10% of our money to the mormon church and they will "invest" it for us!

I only know that he shelters his wealth offshore so that he doesn't have to pay his fair share as an American.

He could believe in the great Juju for all I care.

Whether anybody is a "Christian" depends on how you define "Christian," and there are lots of valid definitions.

See my analysis "Are Mormons Christian?" at http://packham.n4m.org/lds-xian.htm

Well, then don't look at the label, then, look at the features of the theology and compare the lists. Or put it all in a Venn diagram. Look at it more mathematically. With mainstream Christian denominations there is more overlap. Mormonism does not overlap much.

As a former fatty, I learned to read labels.

Fat-free can still have tons of carbs! And sugar is increasingly listed under different names: sucrose, high-fructose corn syrup, corn syrup solids, brown sugar, and dextrose.

http://www.naturalnews.com/021929_groceries_food_products.html#ixzz28uYWsZPI

T-Bone

they add the sugar to the fat free items to make them palatable...so people that need to watch carbs really need to look at the labels and see how much fiber is included also...those are "good carbs'...fat free is something of a gimmick...in dairy though...carbs are not added say to fat free milk...but most fat free foods do have added sugars.

fat free Christianity! yeah thats the ticket!

just watchin carbs!

I wouldn't bother arguing whether he's Christian or not, I would just point out the more unusual/different beliefs he has in Mormonism.

It's hilarious over there. Many tbms are available for planting the exmo seed. I have never seen so many comments on a page in such a small amount of time. Mormons do believe in Jesus, we know that, but you gotta see this.

I can help you with that.

Mormons may have Jesus Christ in the name of their church; however, they are forbidden to address prayers to him. They may only pray to Heavenly Father, in the NAME of Jesus. Mormon apostles recently clarified this by saying that they consider themselves witnesses of the NAME of Jesus, replacing the former language of being witnesses of Jesus Christ himself.

Mormons pray only to the father of Jesus, who they believe is our brother, having come to us through an incestuous physical relationship with Mary, his mother. Jesus is not the God of this planet, Heavenly Father is. Jesus is our brother, the savior of this planet. Other planets have their own Jesus and their own Heavenly Father. These deities were all once men.

There is only one other major church which bans worshipping Jesus, and that's the Jehovah Witness sect. JW's believe prayers directed to Jesus go to Satan instead.

Once this is understood, the reader can decide for himself if Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses can be considered in under the same religious tent as those who consider Jesus as their Personal Savior who lives in their heart and to whom they pray.

Brigham Young taught that Adam was God the Father in mortal form; however, successor prophets have debunked that idea and told Mormons that Heavenly Father is the only God "with which they have to do."

Many Christian denominations refuse to allow religions to call themselves Christian if they do not believe in the Trinity. As you can see, Mormons have a completely different view of the role of Jesus Christ. He is considered to have been married,which is a requirement for exaltation in the highest Mormon kingdom of heaven, and would also be required to be a polygamist in order to be the Heavenly Father of his own world.

Perhaps he is working on that. I know some people who embroidered the entire idea by suggesting that this is the reason Christ returned to earth with his celestial body--to get more wives.

Anagrammy

PS. If you post any of this, there will be Mormon hair on fire.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/10/2012 02:00AM by anagrammy.

Damn girl. You got me with "...they may have Jesus in their name, but they are forbidden to address prayers to him..." Love your use of the word 'forbidden.' Drives it home.

The LDS relationship to mainstream Christianity
https://www.facebook.com/#!/notes/h%C3%B6ly-the-gh%C3%B6st/the-lds-relationship-to-mainstream-christianity/321863391239973


At the time of writing the first draft of this note, there are two members of the LDS church running for the Presidency of the USA, and so there has been a lot of attention focused on Mormonism, and one of the first questions asked regards whether the LDS church is a Christian religion.



The answer question is that Mormonism and the other Christian religions are utterly incompatible. Therefore, if other religions are Christian, then Mormonism is not; if Mormonism is Christian, then ALL OTHER RELIGIONS are not. In fact, the very foundation of the LDS church requires all other religions to be abominations in the sight of God.



The canonical version of Joseph Smith’s First Vision (written 1838, published 1842, allegedly happened 1820), has Jesus Christ himself calling all other Christian religions “all wrong; and … an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt” (Joseph Smith History 1:18-20). Later, Jesus again, dictating to Joseph Smith, says that Mormonism is “the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased” (D&C 1:30-31).



The “only” true and living church? What about the other churches? “[T]here are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth."



The sine qua non of Mormonism is that all other faiths are illegitimate: “Nothing less than a complete apostasy from the Christian religion would warrant the establishment of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.” (Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr., History of the Church, v. 1, p. xl).



Prior to 1990, the Mormon Temple ritual portrayed Christian ministers as hirelings of Lucifer, who tells the minister that they will be well paid if they can convert people to the preachers orthodox religion.



Church leaders have likewise said that all non-Mormon Christianity is of the devil:



George Q. Cannon, while he was serving as 1st Counselor to Mormon Prophet John Taylor: “We belong, because of our obedience, to the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ, to what is known as the Church of Christ, while those who have not embraced this Gospel and entered into covenant with God, belong to the other church—that is the church which is called in the revelations of God, the whore of all the earth, or the mother of abominations. That is the distinction which exists between the Latter-day Saints and the rest of mankind.” (Journal of Discourses, Vol 25, pp. 362-363).



John Taylor, while an Apostle in the church, said "We talk about Christianity, but it is a perfect pack of nonsense…and what is it? It is a sounding brass and a tinkling symbol; it is as corrupt as hell; and the Devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century," (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, 1858, p. 167). Following which, Brigham Young sealed the deal: “Brother Taylor has just said that the religions of the day were hatched in hell. The eggs were laid in hell, hatched on its borders, and kicked on to the earth.” (Journal of Discourses, Vol 6, pg 176).



Joseph Smith made it quite clear in the temple ceremony that Christian pastors were in the employ of Satan, but he also stated so, explicitly: “What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270), and that “...all the priests who adhere to the sectarian religions of the day with all their followers, without one exception, receive their portion with the devil and his angels." (The Elders Journal, Joseph Smith Jr., editor, vol.1, no.4, p.60)



What did the fathers of Mormonism think of Christian people? We’ve already seen what the first prophet thought. Was the second prophet’s attitude different? Brigham Young says “The people called Christians are shrouded in ignorance, and read the Scriptures with darkened understandings.” (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 7, p.333).



Third Prophet John Taylor? “Are Christians ignorant? Yes, as ignorant of the things of God as the brute best…What does the Christian world know about God? Nothing...Why so far as the things of God are concerned, they are the veriest fools; they know neither God nor the things of God." (Journal of Discourses 13:225). “We talk about Christianity, but it is a perfect pack of nonsense…it is as corrupt as hell; and the Devil could not invent a better engine to spread his …. (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 167). “The present Christian world…is mother of harlots and abominations of the earth, and it needs no prophetic vision, to unravel such mysteries. The old church is the mother, and the protestants are the lewd daughters…`There is none in all christendom that doeth good; no, not one.” (Times and Seasons, Vol.6, No.1, p.811).



If, as is stated above, the very reason for the foundation of the LDS church was the illegitimacy of Christianity, we might ask if, over the years, the position of the church has changed, and whether Mormonism now accepts the validity of non Mormon Christan denominations. Sadly, no. And if we look at the statements of recent heads of the church, we see this stated explicitly.



President Spencer W. Kimball (the President/Prophet from 1973-1985) says



This is the only true church ...This is not a church. This is the Church of Jesus Christ. There are churches of men all over the land and they have great cathedrals, synagogues, and other houses of worship running into the hundreds of millions of dollars. They are churches of men. They teach the doctrines of men, combined with the philosophies and ethics and other ideas and ideals that men have partly developed and partly found in sacred places and interpreted for themselves" (Spencer W. Kimball, Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, p.421)



President Kimball’s successor, Ezra Taft Benson (President/Prophet from 1985-1994) likewise says that we are not part of the same category as the Christian churches: "This is not just another Church. This is not just one of a family of Christian churches. This is the Church and kingdom of God, the only true Church upon the face of the earth..." (Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, p.164-165).



Apostle Elder Bruce R. McConkie, one of the most respected recent theologians of the church, says it as explicitly as is possible: “Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are not Protestants, and the Church itself is not a Protestant Church. The true Church is not a dead branch from a dead tree; it is a living tree planted again by revelation in the vineyard of the Lord, and it shall grow and flourish long after. (Mormon Doctrine, p. 269)



In most Christian faiths, salvation is relatively independent of which church one is a member of; most Episcopalians would not have a problem accepting that a Lutheran or Baptist can go to heaven, and vice versa. Not so in Mormonism. In the LDS church, membership in the church is essential for salvation, and “[t}here is no salvation outside The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Mormon Doctrine, p.670).



So what about those who are baptized into other faiths? Will a loving and understanding God not honor these acts of faith? President Charles W. Penrose, who served as a Mormon Apostle and as 1st and 2nd Counselor in the First Presidency of the church lays it out for us: “Every baptism of the Catholic Church, and of the Episcopal Church, and of the Baptist Church, or any other church, if God Almighty did not ordain and authorize the man who performed the ordinance even though he performed it in the right way and used the right words, is null and void…” (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 25, p.339)



And the prophet, president Spencer W. Kimball, goes even further: it’s not only meaningless, but “[p]resumptuous and blasphemous are they who purport to baptize, bless, marry, or perform other sacraments in the name of the Lord while in fact lacking the specific authorization.” (The Miracle of Forgiveness, pg 55).



But wait, there’s more. Not only is the Mormon church necessary for salvation, but so is Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith is necessary for the salvation of all.



Brigham Young makes it clear that "..no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith...every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p.289), and if you don’t accept this you are anti-christ: “he that confesseth not that Jesus has come in the flesh and sent Joseph Smith with the fullness of the Gospel to this generation, is not of God, but is anti-christ" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 9, p.312).



This is not some quaint 19th century position. It was taught well into the 20th century. President Joseph Fielding Smith said that there can be"no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth...no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190).



Bruce McConkie agrees "If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation. There is no salvation outside The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Mormon Doctrine, p.670).



This principal was taught explicitly as recently as 1988. The 1988 Melchizedek Priesthood Study Guide (p. 142) quotes George Q. Cannon as saying “"If we get our salvation, we shall have to pass by him [Joseph Smith]; if we enter our glory, it will be through the authority he has received. We cannot get around him [Joseph Smith]"



Some critics of Mormonism have tried to argue that the Jesus of Mormonism is not the same Jesus as of traditional Christianity. President Gordon B. Hinkley implies that these critics are not entirely off the mark: “They say we do not believe in the traditional Christ of Christianity. There is some substance to what they say… (Ensign, May 2002, p.90). Apostle Bruce R. McConkie explains why. The Jesus of traditional Christianity is mythical: “Virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ" (LDS Apostle Bruce McConkie, in Mormon Doctrine, p.269).



President Hinckley does not mince his words:



The traditional Christ of whom they [non-Mormons] speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak has been revealed in this the Dispensation of the Fulness of Times. He together with His Father, appeared to the boy Joseph Smith in the year 1820, and when Joseph left the grove that day, he knew more of the nature of God than all the learned ministers of the gospel of the ages" (LDS Church News Week 6/20/98, p.7)



To summarize:



- The sine qua non of Mormonism is that all other Christianity is invalid, an abomination to God.



- All other Christianity is inspired by the devil, the leaders are corrupt, and the followers ignorant



- There is no salvation in any of the other churches. Their rituals are blasphemy.



- Mormonism is not part of the same category as the traditional Christian churches.



- You have to be a member of the LDS church to get into heaven.



- Joseph Smith has to approve your entry into heaven.



- The Jesus of Mormonism might not be the same “mythical” Jesus of Christianity.



Does this sound like Mormons are Christians. Hence my answer to the question of whether Mormons are Christians: If Mormons are Christians, then NO ONE ELSE IS!



In recent years, observers have suggested that Mormonism is softening its position, trying to align itself more with traditional Protestantism. If so, part of this project of mainstreaming needs to include disavowing those doctrines that make Mormonism incompatible with mainstream Protestantism, doctrines like all other churches being an abomination to God, the necessity of LDS membership for salvation, and the necessity of being judged by Joseph Smith.

Dear Holy The Ghost,
Where have you been all my life? I just had a burning in the bosom™! There's nothing like throwing their own words right back at them!

I'm copying and saving, with attributes!

Thank you, HtG.

Ask a Mormon if we are saved by grace or works. They don't know how to answer, unless they have been in intense theological battles with Christians.

Jeff Lindsay has some writings on this. Read it before you ask a Mormon. You'll know more about their church than they do.

http://www.jefflindsay.com/faith_works.html

Per Jeff Lindsey:

"The truth is that we are saved by the grace of Christ which is offered to us through a covenant, a two-way contract: if we accept Christ and do our part, following and obeying him, then Christ does everything else..."

Many theologians still consider this as putting a requirement of works on receiving grace, particularly the "do our part - following and obeying" section.

Inherent in entering into a "two-way contract" is the necessity of each party doing something - in this case, in order to get the goodies Christ supposedly offers one must do the doing of thinking in one's mind "I believe in Christ". Only then does the contracted party get the ROI from the other.

To make matters worse, TSCC interprets concepts such as salvation & eternal life as referring to fairy tales that occur in some fictional life after death. If you're gonna be a christian and maybe get some useful mileage out of "grace", wouldn't it be far better to think of getting saved as being made whole now, not later, and eternal life as living a mortal life that has deep meaning through compassion, community and service to our fellow humans?

The LDS views on grace/salvation/eternal life almost make me feel sorry for them. What a tragic waste of the only life we can ever know anything about - to obsess over some imaginary existence after death.

The classic double bind. TBMs can't have it both ways. Either they're The One True Church of Christ and JS/early prophets were the real deal, making all other Christian churches abominations, or the entire thing is a fraud.

I'm sure it makes some of todays TBMs nostalgic for times of yore when the followers of JS, BY, et al didn't have to invent transparent excuses for their separatism, bigotry & racism.

I thought this was a great video rant about the craziness of Mormonism as compared to other religious craziness:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qJDd-2tM-A&feature=youtu.be

To me the meaning of Christian is nothing more than how you choose to live your life.. The soul of Jesus chose to come to earth to help us as people and in the animal kingdom to evolve and coexist. He came with a lot of knowledge on how to exemplify the self in the human form. From my reading Mary was also conceived by immaculate conception and knew at a very young age she would possibly have the same miracle happen to her- she was worthy of it and had karma with her son. They were part of a jewish sect called the Essenes that lived on the shores of the Dead Sea. This opportunity came to them from many lifetimes, lessons learned, and giving back. That means to me to help people that are misinformed or trapped. -Are you going to smile at the person walking your way or turn away? Are you going to be jealous and think negative things or are you going to try and see the good that someone brings to the table- maybe tell them something kind and give them reassurance. Help correct their mistakes and offer a lot of love. Everybody wants respect but not everybody wants to give it.

It means to me to help bring everyone up to speed. There are so many people trapped in hell hole religions that literally makes this earth life hell and super confusing. Africa, middle east, china... etc. -they need help!! Other people's situations around the world can bring extreme pain and sadness- not just confining religions, We all need to help lift each other up.

We are all connected in this world and need to be some kind of cornerstone in our communities and answer the call that burns in our souls to help, understand, and love everyone and those that may not like us... also severely calm the ego.. Not going that good I say in my head about cocky people(we also deserve some kind of recognition for our work and contribution- but if we don't get it ohhh.. WELL! IT's all good- don't do things for the recognition). We are all equals and need to learn to just be in the moment and appreciate the beauty that is everywhere and all around us. Be kind to all creatures because I believe they are souls just like us and most are here to help us, and they need our help as well.

Most religions have some truth to them and were able to exist until now because we needed the backbone of religion and stability. We are finally exiting out of the Age of Pisces.. The Age of Pisces is/was about depth, dreams, infused fears, and religion. The Age of Aquarius is pictured by waves- air waves. How will we transmit ourselves in the future and what will our projection be to the world? Dec. 21st may be the entrance date. Can we impact goodness and leave good energy? Jesus the man knew a lot of about the Zodiac and the influence it gives to us- that's why his symbol was fish- like Pisces. It wasn't just Jesus that ushered in the Age of Pisces it was Buddha and Muhammad as well. There is so much info out there about it- you have to be sure to read a variety of sources and dedicate a lot of time to researching and pondering- it's the Christ-consciousness that we are trying to achieve and that is uniting all of our parts- many are lost and shutout- go back and find yourself and help free people in a loving manner. I have taken the take it or leave it action and I may reap the bad from it. I am scared but I felt like I was sick of prancing around the edges of the creepy so fake Mormon club. I hope I am not hated but if I am- then, I will deal with that- and move even further away from the haters. I hated growing up Mormon and I wouldn't wish that upon an innocent child trying to figure out wtf is going on on this planet. They deserve a better start and a more inspiring way to look at everything in a relative way... question everything!

Who's definition is the real one? If you take Mormonism's he is, if you take Evangelicals, then no.

Is it "belief in Christ", or that you "are saved by grace"?

No one can decide if he is or isn't until you get the final definition of what a Christian is.

That everybody seems to want to claim as their own, so has lost all meaning.

The point here is that the Mormons, in their usual dishonest way, try to fool the outside world that they are in the same religious group with Lutherans, Methodists, Catholics, etc., with just a few minor differences. As brilliantly outlined above by Holy the Ghost, this is not true at all. Mormon theology is actually in conflict with the theology of those other groups, so could never be grouped together with them. Whatever labels you want to give those groups, I really don't care. Just don't get complacent or duped by the Mormons use of the "Jesus Christ" label that they use like the Goodhousekeeping Seal of Approval on their product. Look under the label to see what is in the bottle.

Couldn't have put it better myself. It looks like the real thing, talks like the real thing, but underneath, it's crawling with maggots.

Mormons have historically tried hard to set themselves apart from and deny any connection to mainstream (or even offshoot backwater) versions of Christianity, whether Protestant or Catholic.

I say let their own words speak for them. As outlined by HtG, that pretty much answers the question.

Yes, what happened to the years of, "I'm not a Christian, I'm a Mormon!"

LOL!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/10/2012 11:41AM by WinksWinks.

I remember SAYING it!

LOL!

Ever heard of Shawn Mccraney? He is an ex-mormon (now Christian) and he has some very good insight on why the LDS do not follow Christ. I stumbled upon his videos on youtube, but he has his own TV program.

Didn't BRM say very clearly and decisively that we DO NOT worship Jesus?

A little background without getting political, I hope! So there is a growing concern and division in the GOP between authoritarians and grassroots Protestants. Clearly the person running that fb page isn't Dr. Paul--I can't even see him asking a question like that. I just checked their site this morning, I don't know if the bajillion responses shut the site down or what but it was clearly ruffling a lot of tbm feathers. There were pastors even chiming in! Now the question and subsequent comments have been completely deleted.

OK, here's where I hope you don't think I'm being political, This is germaine to why I think they asked: the RNC was a wake up call to particularly the libertarian wing of the GOP. There was bullying like you wouldn't believe. A few delegates were held in a bus, circling the RNC, while they begged to be let off the bus. They missed the convention. They were kidnapped. There were eight veteran delegates and one female delegate who were kicked out of the convention, and there was even some physical bullying as well. All these delegates were libertarian delegates. This has morphed into a growing concern among grassroots folks that there is a Mormon connection. I think there is a connection. The Mormon Mafia is alive and well.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/10/2012 11:09AM by FormerLatterClimber.