When considering gender and Mormonism, I generally think of the effect on women. Someone made an excellent point that there is also a significant negative influence on men. I thought the following was an interesting take on the issue.

"some women marry their returned missionary and then proceed to essentially kill off who he is and use his carcass as a puppet to get what she wants, like status in her church social group, financial support, etc." - Silver Girl

...and a probable cause...

What is amazing to me is how many TBMs have told me "She just didn't understand, she was not living the gospel correctly, etc. etc. etc." Nope, the church is perfect, it is all her fault for not understanding the "right" way to live the gospel. I've never met a woman that was trying harder to be "perfect" as defined by the church. It ruined our marriage, nearly killed me, and eventually destroyed our family. I am perfectly willing to take the responsibility for the mistakes I made during this difficult time, but I still feel that the church owns about 70% of the responsibility for the failure of our marriage. It was the one the ###### up her sexuality, it was the one who's teachings taught me that I couldn't be good enough, it was the one that taught her she couldn't say no to a calling, it was the one that told her if she attended the Temple every Saturday morning that God would somehow miraculously save our marriage. It was the one that taught her if she paid 10% in tithing and 5% in fast offerings that we would be "blessed" (instead we were impoverished). It was also the one that taught her that divorcing her "Apostate" husband was the "right" thing to do. - Max

http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/22485/P0/

What you wrote is true and all very sad. So often men have to prove their worth by dishing out all the money to look good. So often the men have to listen to the women say they must do this or that for the "church" rather than concentrate on their family. I feel badly for those who divorce over a church. But when one loves the "church" more than the person
they marry, it is inevitable. Always there are people who genuinely love YOU for you. Chalk it up to an experience you will never deal with again.

in discussing the "effect of Mormonism on men" (as distinguishable from its effects on women), you then used a quote that described it solely in terms of the secondary consequences of Mormonism's demands on women.

The church isn't just bad for men because it makes their women miserable.

I think there are more direct negative consequences toward men-- pressure to serve missions, pressure for early and unwise marriages, pressure to earn, pressure to fulfill time-consuming callings that infringe on family time, the church's puritanical obsession with masturbation, etc.

Let's not forget making them totally arrogant. That does them a disservice and makes them annoying.

My TBM friend is the worst person to talk to after coming from a bishopric meeting. I have to wait a few hours for him to come back down to earth. It's like he thinks he's the greatest thing since sliced bread. It makes it hard to talk to him.

Christ never acted this way- and he was raising people from the dead! In fact, he was telling people not to tell ANYONE about the miracles in the beginning. Paul the Apostle was likewise pretty humble, for all of his weaknesses.

Legit power doesn't need to toot its own horn.

Take that priesthood!

So true....the arrogance is one thing we nonmormons notice. Once a mormon man came right up to our table at a restaurant and asked if my daughter wasn't going to FHE that night. I was livid. I did not know this man. But the brainwashing mormons had introduced my daughter to this man at some point in their lovebombing. He never looked at the rest of my family to introduce himself. My daughter did not join mormonism at this time- but did 4 yrs. later. Still annoyed at what all the adult men and others do to pull kids away from their parents - and the religion these kids grew up with. Mormon men are as bad as the lovebombers.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/12/2011 01:37PM by honestone.

I have a friend who turned into this bossy thing I didn't recognize once she married in the temple. She felt it was her duty to mould him and shape him into the righteous Priesthood holder that he could become. She'd lecture him if he went to leave the house without a prayer first. She felt it was her duty to change him.

I said, "How would you like it if it was him trying to change you? If you have to change a person into what you think he should be, then you've got the wrong person for you."

But she was adamant. "No, I see his potential, and it's my duty to help him reach it." I said, "Just because a person has potential doesn't mean that they'll achieve it, or if they even want to achieve the potential that you see in them.

They divorced, for much more serious reasons than that, but it sure didn't help. He started escaping the house whenever he could, from quite early on in the marriage.

Don't forget how it effects the time men get with their kids. Big time. For all the talk of families, a lot of LDS dads are conspicuously absent from their kids lives. And how could they not be? When you have a 40-hour a week job, and a calling like bishop or stake president that takes just as much time, family just has to come last.

I doubt that I was a typical mormon man, not only was I a convert but I was also raised by my mother (educated working medical professional). So going into mormonism I had a different view of gender roles.

I converted and attended a YSA ward (18-30 year olds), I never served a mission. Many of the girls made no attempt to hide the fact that they were not interested in dating me until I served a mission. Twice I was at a YSA church dance and asked a girl to slow dance and during the conversation these girls asked "where did you serve a mission?" (subtle girls), and when I said that I didn't they literally walked away in the middle of the song. Many other times the girls would just end the conversation and we would finish the dance in silence... classy ladies.

When I got married I tried to fit the role my BIC wife expected me to fill, and HATED it. I wanted a truely equal partner where I could debate the merits of various choices with. She expected me to always be "in tune to the spirit" and know what the right thing to do was. But the kicker was that if she didn't agree with me she would pretend to agree and then just do her own thing anyway... so what was the point of demanding that I have supernatural deciscion making powers?

There was constant pressure to be worthy of those magical powers. Once she asked me to give her a blessing so she would know what she should do in regards to her occupation (she already had a worthless masters degree that I was paying for) since she was having no luck finding a job. I agreed because it would make her feel better but I asked why can't we just discuss as a couple what would be best for the family?

When I finally "came out" to my wife about my disbelief I felt a profound sense of relief that I didn't have to be the "priesthood" anymore. I felt so much better about our marriage after I admitted that I didn't believe in the priesthood... I was actually excited to create a more equal partnership. But I guess without the priesthood and the church I wasn't able to fulfil her needs so now DW is soon to be ex-wife. So I guess losing my marriage is another effect of mormonism on men.

Does that address your question?

Its a really, strange tribe. Men have to be both strong, and weak. Men have to be both competitive with other men, and, submissive to tribal authority. Men have to be dominant over women, attempt to be dominant over surrounding other men, and be submissive to any man raised even yesterday into tribal hiearchical authority. That's what it looks like to me.

& as a tribal member, males do not have control or vote in reality over who is someone they will submit to... its more corporate than that.

In a political tribe or tribal nation, there may be political leaders/and old people sitting on council and a war council, led by the greatest warrior (all the men could really respect) and demonstrate dominance.
What is up with the next calling?

who is someone for your submission to - rote submission not earned.

what is up with the next calling for YOU as a man- you can't earn merit or respect or dominance or go up in the tribe by almost anything you do- someone, somewhere, you dont' know is sitting making determination over who is going to rule over you or who next you are going to submit to. NOT a very local tribe. NOT a great place to be a fighter or an actual warrior or even a fighter jet pilot, a submarine commander, a nuclear physicist, a great engineer- you just don't earn respect or get respect, you get in line and give submission to who ever is called over you in the line of dominance.

How's that sound- for how to be a man?

oh also, as in some groups but not most, sexuality is publically curtailed or controlled by a code set up by the leaders of the tribe, and men in the tribe have to follow their code, and their ritual life sequence for sexual opportunity. Forcing following the code is a little hitch to avoid comfort, release, and place men under pressure to perform the tribal leadership's dictates. So sexuality is used by the ultimate leader of the tribe as way to form men into following his demands.

& on an energy level, drained emotionally by guilt or shame not folowing the code & showing up at meetings, men are more leadable within the hierachy. paradoxically, when men DO follow the code & are not getting their needs met their energy flows up the hierachy or may be drained or shunted up a flow of dominance within meeting or interactions structure. That's a guess you could look up the psychology of unmet needs & manipulation / control or variables of submission/dominance; also you could look up occult sexual energy flow in groups with public speaking & look into why SOME theorize groups keep adult needs lacking/less met.

so hows it go being a man? strong enough? not strong enough? strong? oh but hard hearted (not submissive enough) broken hearted oh but annoyed (way too weak) can't win can you?
THAT'S the CATCH-22

I mean, REALLY, how many men thought they felt inspired when they gave blessings?

Yet they were expected to act in GOD'S NAME. WOW. They couldn't readily admit that they aren't receiving inspiration.

Maybe some think they DO receive inspiration. But I'd be willing to bet that MOST don't. I know one who THOUGHT he was inspired to bless somebody with healing and that didn't happen. It shook his testimony to the core, and he ended up leaving the church.

I guess what I'm saying it's WRONG that men are EXPECTED to talk to God. That's a lot of pressure. And my personal belief is that NOBODY talks to God. (There IS no God, in my opinion). Having to pretend damages men, either by encouraging them to put on a facade for those they should be close to, or by living their lives in a superstitious fantasy instead of reality.

Here's a repost of what I posted last time for those interested in how Mormonism screws men over
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Men definitely are victimized by Mormonism. Let me count the ways:

1) Being deprived of a real male role model because their own father never learned a damn thing about being a father in church and was always away at meetings.

2) Being forced to attend 3 hours of cult indoctrination every week. In my experience, pretty much every little boy hates going to church and would never go if he had a choice. If a boy were to express his feeling that church is boring and he doesn't want to go, he will immediately be rudely reprimanded and told he'll go to hell for saying such things.

3) Subjected to CONSTANT emotional bullying while teenagers from adults about how they are evil because they think about sex once and a while.

4) Told that wanking is going to send them to hell and that they need to do everything in their power to stop it and never do it again. Then when they inevitably fail, they feel even worse than before.

5a) Forced to go on a 2 year program of cult servitude where they are subjected to harsh living conditions, fascistic personal restrictions, emotional blackmail, spying, and continually being lied to that the reason they can't baptize people is that they had a "filthy" thought about an attractive woman they saw on the street. Oh and don't forget even more masturbation obsession.

5b) Those who do not go on missions are *forever* ostracized by LDS women who have been brainwashed to fear and loathe ALL Mormon men who did not go on missions. I know many single LDS men who did not serve missions and every single one of them hates his life without realizing that that the main reason his life sucks is that he has been brainwashed to think that he should only date the women who hate him.

6) After returning home from the mission, they are told that they should never, ever, ever want to have sex with a woman and that in order to avoid this "sin next to murder," he must get married to the first female thing that moves, regardless of such small details as personal or sexual compatibility or such trivialities as, oh, being able to afford getting hitched.

If he doesn't get married immediately, he will face a lifetime of scorn and gossip for "being gay.**" God forbid that he's a little shy and is uncomfortable around the opposite sex. That's simply not possible. He must be gay.

Oh and gawd forbid he actually is gay. If so there will be a lifetime of misery in store for him. Since there are more gay men than gay women, the mormons' stance against gays disproportionately affects men. Gay men are told that they must hate themselves and that the only way they have even a chance at heaven is to remain celebate and to marry a woman, if they can stand it. Lying to her and not telling her he's gay is encouraged.

7) After tying the knot, the Mormon young male must then embark on a career path designed to accumulate as much stuff as humanly possible because we all know that without outward trappings of wealth, he will never have any respect or status in the ward he's in.

Nor can he expect his wife to help pitch in with the earnings either. She will stay home and tend his 82 children that he's had because Jesus says birth control is a sin. In the event that they have only 1 or 2, she'll still leave it up to him because he's supposed to be the "provider" as part of his "priesthood" responsibilities.

8) Speaking of the priesthood, talk about a booby prize. It takes the cake for sure. Mormon men are told from boyhood that they have the literal authority to act in God's name and that they are, verily, empowered by the magic dust of Elohim.

Except of course that the magic dust never actually seems to do a darn thing. They're told they can heal the sick or pray and move mountains except none of that stuff actually ever happens. Must be because of masturbation again.

This entire exercise sets the men up for failure and then blames the men because they can't do the magical stuff like Jesus and pals did back in the Bible days or even Horny Joe did in our "latter days."

9) Having failed to find a woman that he actually likes (he may have if he's lucky), a career that he enjoys (had to take first job available), more children than he can support on his sole salary in a dual-income economy, the Mormon male is then told that he must take on additional duties for his cult: home teaching, service projects, mandatory "callings," while also being told to nurture his children.

At this point, a lot of this stops making sense to the Mormon man and he starts wondering "Why am I wasting my time with this?" and stops attending church. Soon he begins to research and find that it's all a gigantic crock of curelom feces.

And then his wife leaves him and takes the kids.

Thanks, Mormonism!

Non-Mormon women are quite capable of such behaviour.

They work hard to change their husband, and then bitch to their friends about how: "Harry just isn't the man I married!"

When a Mormon man marries a Mormon woman he hopes she'll never change.

When a Mormon woman marries a Mormon man she hopes to change him.

Both partners soon see their hopes dashed.

Nothing more true has ever been spoken.

I fairly recently learned that my father has been going to counselling for quite a while. I know he has struggled for years with not feeling righteous enough. (I really wish it wasn't an LDS councilor)

The church definitely took away our chance for a good relationship when we were growing up. He was always at work or at endless meetings. It seemed like he was just some random guy that showed up to yell at us to clean our rooms or eat our broccoli.

I also feel like the church never prepared him in any way for raising children. The only things he "taught" us was regurgitated (and randomly changing) church crap. He never really knew how to sit down and talk to us about issues, it was always just a big sermon. And he most certainly wasn't prepared to deal rationally when both my brother and I left the church.

I find it incredibly sad that the church pushes men into getting a family ASAP, then takes them away all the time, so they are practically strangers, and certainly doesnt prepare them for any of it.

The constant browbeating that boys and men take from ersatz authority figures in the church over, well, many things is emotionally and psychologically damaging.

We're told from an early age that touching your own little penis is a mortal sin and that you'll go straight to hell for abusing your reproductive system. The pressure never relents. But then we're constantly held up to the example of men who were documented perverts and sexual deviants and told that we should emulate them as closely as possible. All our lives we're told to avoid impure thoughts, all the while being pressured to have more kids once we're married to the obligatory virginal (read: utterly naive) TBM girl.

I can hold up the example of a young man my age who grew up in a home with 18 (no joke) kids. I'd never seen a family so devoted to LDS teachings, even though the kids barely knew their parents and the eldest of them were parenting the rest. Throughout high school this young man struggled with the puritanical obsession with chastity, eventually failing miserably but the the whole time trying so hard to meet the unachievable ideal while laboring under a massive burden of guilt. All the strain unsettled his already unstable life and psyche and for a few years he desperately needed professional counseling.

A few years after high school, this young man married a very nice girl and for a time seemed to be on solid ground again. But as his new family quickly grew beyond his capacity to provide for them the old instability cropped up again, eventually culminating in the demise of his marriage. For years I didn't hear anything about him until, one day, I read a news account in which he was implicated a breaking and entering the residences of young college females on several occasions that nearly ended in sexual assault.

I'm no psychologist, but I think I can see the progression of years of guilt and pressure contributing to an already unstable man's slow slide into true deviance. Rather than learning to love himself as-is, embrace his sexuality and learn to handle his predilections constructively, he lived with a growing libido and a guilty conscience instead and that, I believe, led directly to a mental breakdown and his eventual arrest.