IN another one of these weird RFM coincidences, I've been reading up on John Bunyan. Some of my ancestors were devout Baptists, (Bunyan was a Baptist) so I've wondered what it was that attracted them to Mormonism.
Thanks for pointing this out. I hope someone familiar with Pilgrim's Progress follows up on this topic.
Joseph Smith didn't have an original idea in his head ever, but he was certainly creative in weaving together the ideas of other people.
WOW... I had no idea there were such close similarities. We all know JS was a plagiarizer, and borrower from everything he had ever read or seen. This makes a lot of sense. Just more of his book of fiction which can be traced to Pilgrims Progress! Who knew!
Putting your head in a hat is like closing your eyes. He closed his eyes, and told a story. His mother said he was a very talented story teller from the time he was young.
It's much easier to tell a story than it is to write one. Try it some time. Especially a story you've heard or read before. Throw in some of your own ideas and names. He had educated scribes to get the spelling and technical stuff right.
Here's the big puzzle-- when did Joseph Smith have enough time away from masturbating to do all that reading? And if he did read so much, how come he didn't acquire the spelling and grammar education that comes with time spent reading?
I agree with Tom Denofrio who made an impressive argument that Joseph Smith's experiences included a sting as a Methodist revival helper, an exhorter when a young man. Grant Palmer also mentions this. In looking at an assortment of plagiarized phrases from contemporary authors he felt it was more likely that he was taking them from itinerant preacher's revival sermons, which included free flowing ideas and phrases taken from the prominent revival preachers of the time, like Jonathan Edwards, whose sermons would have been available to them. And Joseph listened to them with rapt attention, seeing the power coming from them from the mesmerized audience begging for forgiveness.
Joseph Smith's rural phraseology (ain't, git, etc) confounds the idea that he could have copied from sources such as E. D. Howe or Spaulding. I wonder if Sidney Rigdon might have read Spaulding's manuscript to Joseph and they discussed the possibility that the ancient mound builders were descendants of Abraham. Rigdon would have shared his thoughts and ideas freely and Rigdon was an educated man very conversant with the rhetoric of Revolutionary and literary writers of the time. Perhaps he even broke out some of Mercy Otis Warren's writings to inspire the rebel aspect of Smith's personality, to appeal to his grandiosity, with the idea that they would sell the book and make some $$.
Smith listed himself as author and proprietor of the Book of Mormon copyright, giving neither Rigdon nor God any credit whatsoever. He also was inspired to sell the copyright and sent his minions to Toronto where he was inspired to tell the them it would surely sell. They returned without selling it and so now we have the plague on our land of Mormon Church, a parasite corporation selling after-life insurance in exchange for 10% of the income and all the spare time of the family victims.
It was Joseph Smith's last and finest con. Except for his unbridled ego and unrestrained lust, he could have gone on to crown himself Emperor and God to all mankind (after winning the presidency, of course).
He was killed for his outrageous destruction of the printing press which was to expose his philandering once and for all to read. Killed by a mob of outraged men who knew exactly what he was up to with these teenaged girls. I have no knowledge or proof of this, but my spidey sense tells me they cut off his "member." It's what they did to scoundrels like him at the time -- Mormons were quite fond of doing that.
Of course this would be hushed up and his grave hidden so no one would know....
Anagrammy
PS. Maybe it's in the vault along with the other stuff....LOL! Happy Halloween all!
anagrammy Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > And if he did read so much, how come he > didn't acquire the spelling and grammar education > that comes with time spent reading?
anagrammy Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Here's the big puzzle-- when did Joseph Smith have > enough time away from masturbating to do all that > reading?
> I have no > knowledge or proof of this, but my spidey sense > tells me they cut off his "member." It's what > they did to scoundrels like him at the time -- > Mormons were quite fond of doing that. > > Of course this would be hushed up and his grave > hidden so no one would know.... > > > Anagrammy > > PS. Maybe it's in the vault along with the other > stuff....LOL! Happy Halloween all!
Really? I thought this was funnier!! Anagrammy, you kill me!
anagrammy Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Here's the big puzzle-- when did Joseph Smith have > enough time away from masturbating to do all that > reading? And if he did read so much, how come he > didn't acquire the spelling and grammar education > that comes with time spent reading?
Awesome how you word this! Agreed. One thing that puzzles me despite all this is: after failing to sell it in Canada, why did they think people would 'buy' it in the US? Did they not fear that people would notice that parts of the sermons closely resembled, and in some places quoted verbatim, revivalist preachers or sermons straight from the burnt over district? Surely someone was educated enough to say, "Hold on a minute, this sounds like a sermon I heard several years ago!"
> Rigdon ...Perhaps [he] even broke out some of Mercy Otis > Warren's writings to inspire the rebel aspect of > Smith's personality, to appeal to his grandiosity, > with the idea that they would sell the book and > make some $$.
This explains the 'Revolutionary' type of warfare in parts of the BOM. I'm sure I'd read it somewhere previously. Again, did no one notice or were the books so obscure as to not attract attention?
> They returned > without selling it and so now we have the plague > on our land of Mormon Church, a parasite > corporation selling after-life insurance in > exchange for 10% of the income and all the spare > time of the family victims.
Nailed it!!!! +1,000!
> Killed by > a mob of outraged men who knew exactly what he was > up to with these teenaged girls. I have no > knowledge or proof of this, but my spidey sense > tells me they cut off his "member." It's what > they did to scoundrels like him at the time -- > Mormons were quite fond of doing that.
You may be on to something, very likely. Anagrammy for President!
> PS. Maybe it's in the vault along with the other > stuff....LOL! Happy Halloween all!
LOL, that's the stuff of stories meant to scare kids.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/01/2012 09:10AM by charles, buddhist punk.
Thanks, Charles Buddhist Punk, always enjoy your comments. We are like-minded.
Namaste!
Anagrammy
Since the church is so hungry for money they are shaking down parents for more teenage missionary support, maybe someone will get really smart and sell relics, like the Catholic church does.
Or maybe put the "member" on display under a tea towel and charge people $5.00 each to look at the bulge. Bring it out every 20 years or so like the Cathoics do for the Shroud of Turin...
I'm cautious, because I believe 'too many' theories best serve the TBMs. Their reaction Clearly will be: "They can't prove Anything, yet these theories keep cropping up."
Instead, focus on the 'substance' (such as it is) of the BoM, which Very Few pay anything more than a wink at.
The substance of the BoM isn't the focus of hardly anything in day-to-day Mormonism, that's for sure.
The leaders of the church know the truth. The sit on their little thrones in smug silence. They are disgusting.
They don't have those vaults in lock down for nothing. There is where the details of the truth sit gathering dust while the leaders continue to suck the life out of the members.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/31/2012 11:31PM by Mia.
Mia Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > The leaders of the church know the truth. The sit > on their little thrones in smug silence. They are > disgusting. > > They don't have those vaults in lock down for > nothing. There is where the details of the truth > sit gathering dust while the leaders continue to > suck the life out of the members.
all the while Denying that they hide Facts from people (members).
there just Isn't a word or phrase strong enough to describe my Disgust for them.
This is fascinating, I think I saw a copy of Pilgrim's Progress lying around, might have to pick that up...
Stray Mutt Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > anagrammy Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > And if he did read so much, how come he > > didn't acquire the spelling and grammar > education > > that comes with time spent reading? > > Good point.
Maybe they were read aloud to him as a child or something. Also, it's possible to read a lot without getting good at writing. I've interacted online with a dyslexic person who was obviously reading a lot (for there to have been interaction), but obviously that didn't prevent her from misspelling or seeming any more formal.
I can see someone who isn't very studious or doesn't like to apply themselves to writing in a formal way do similarly. Consider most of the writing on the internet!
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/01/2012 01:32AM by hexalm.
The reasons the "marks" didn't recognize the plagiarisms in the Book of Mormon is because the majority of them were believers in the Magic World View and shared the Christian fundamentalist disdain for education.
In other words, they were not well-educated or well-read themselves. Look at Martin Harris, a successful man of his day and he was an idiot. Even his wife was smarter and she showed him plainly it was all a fraud and even THEN he wanted so badly to be in on something momentous, to be a pal of a rock star...
At least we can say about ourselves that we weren't given all the information (if we are converts) or that we were raised in it and never knew anything different (if we are BIC).
Martin Harris, like some we know these days, knew it was a fake and wanted in on it anyway because he perceived some personal benefit.
The position I argue from is that it is simply not what it purports to be. Period.
Who made it up and what they stole, cobbled, and glued together to get it from point zero to what it is at present is not my problem. I don't have to prove who made it up if they can't even prove it is the real deal.
cuz somebody else did it for him. All the talk about JS being a creative genius who could pull the BoM out of his you-know-what or smart enough to cleverly plagarize seems irrelevant. If you trace his history, there's a hardly a consistent narrative to what he did next outside of trying to make the next quick score. ANd money and sex were the two big lures.
Read "Who Really Wrote the Book of Mormon". That's the most exhaustive work IMO about where the book may have come from. It also supports my theory that the conman let others do the heavy lifting. He had to save his back so he could boink all the pretty girls after all.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/01/2012 10:15PM by mrtranquility.