S.O. and I were having dinner last night, talking about the tragedy and what-not, and something occurred to me that I'd never considered before.

As a theist, whenever something terrible happened like yesterday's shootings, I immediately started justifying why it wasn't really "that bad." It couldn't be, after all, since all of this was part of god's plan. God knew everything, and he loved us, and he had a plan, so whenever people were experiencing true loss, true devastation, true sadness, I was busy trying to place their tragedy in some kind of context in which it was "a-ok."

I realized that it's impossible for mormons, christians, and other western religions to ever allow themselves to see a tragedy for what it is: a tragedy. They can't, because on some level they believe that in the end there was some divine purpose in the tragedy and that makes it not a tragedy, but divine will.

I'm so glad that I can now see a tragedy for a tragedy and allow people to be devastated when that's exactly how they should be feeling. I'm so glad that I don't have to perform mental gymnastics to try to tell grieving mothers why their devastation is the product of "not understanding god's plan" instead of the fact that they lost their children and really have no idea if they'll ever see them again.

That is all.

I agree
It will take time and work to get over it, if ever. Not platitudes. Each will have to come to terms with it in their own fashion and belief system. Not for me to say.

danged terrible

..saying that Christians can't see things as a tragedy (yes, I am a Christian) shows a very shallow understanding and limited world view on your part.

More than a tragedy-this is a very clear example of evil in the world.

You should be wary of trying to pidgeon-hole and oversimplify the thoughts and beliefs of others...it only lead to false assumptions.

You've just proven his point entirely by calling it "more than a tragedy". An atheist only sees tragedy. Not some sort of magic evil. It's people with very real problems that do these kinds of things.

Unwittingly, you further bolstered his realization.

Not every Christian is a fatalist. This has nothing to do with God and His plan. It has everything to do with evil and the work of a terrible enemy. God can redeem it, yes, but He didn't do it. A terrible tragedy. I'm not much of a crier, but it makes me mad and literally nauseous.

That's nonsense and you know it.

If your god is all-knowing and all-powerful, then he knew what would happen yesterday before he ever made his first creative act. He could have chosen not to create this universe of suffering, but he did it anyway.

As an all-powerful being, he presumably could have created a universe of no suffering that still yielded the same result as this one, but he didn't.

So, if you believe your god is NOT all-knowing or all-powerful, I wasn't talking to you. I was talking to the christians. You're obviously not one..

+1 and I agree. People who make the argument that if God was allowed in schools than this wouldn't of happened implies that God doesn't love us unconditionally because he only saves kids from being murdered if we worship him. Sounds more like a jealous douche if you ask me.

And also if people are mad at God for not stepping in and preventing at tragedy like this how mad would they be if they knew there is a "living prophet on the earth today who talks to God" who didn't prevent it? noah tried to warn people of the flood why didn't ole tommy boy warn us of this?

I tend to agree with OP on this one, Christians have the devil and Jesus as independent forces on earth.

Some peace came to me when I realized they are all part of the recipe that makes us what we are. We can choose tools as needed, and perfect them as we choose as well (unless there is mental illness or a cult on board).

Do Christians believe someone is morally good that rejects the premise of a Christ atonement? I don't know if it is Christian or Mormon, but I think Christian that the natural state of man by just being born is of sin and evil. Thus requiring some sort of God sacrifice and atonement in order for sinners to return to God.

Not so sure that one is a story either, made up to make us need third-party help to get to a place nobody has ever been able to confirm exists, I hear heaven is great though and that hanging out with Jesus will be my dream come true!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/15/2012 11:34AM by gentlestrength.

Sorry, notmonotloggedin, but you win the prize for most ridiculous.

<<More than a tragedy-this is a very clear example of evil in the world.>>

Here we go.

If you're a christian, or any of the offshoots of middle-eastern folklore, you believe your god is the "first cause" of all phenomena. In the beginning, it was just your god and nothing else.

Therefore, your god created evil in the first place. If you try to copout and say the devil created evil, I would point out that your god created the devil. If you try to say that your god created the devil as an angel of light first, I would point out that your god is supposedly all-knowing, therefore he knew what the devil would turn out to be even before he created him in the first place.

How you can't see that your god is responsible for everything is beyond me. It's typical christian behavior to conveniently change the attributes of your god depending on the circumstances. He's all-knowing when you need your car keys, but not when terrible events occur.

I guess I'm not surprised.

Oh please tell me your definition of "evil"
make a good long list

it will keep you busy
while my meds kick in

steeeaaaaams

Wait, your funnier than S H I T ... hahahaha
ty meds, just in time



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/15/2012 11:26AM by mindlight.

So, killing 20 innocent children, six teachers, your mama and yourself doesn't fit your definition of evil? Wow, I thought that was a no-brainer.

justsayin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So, killing 20 innocent children, six teachers,
> your mama and yourself doesn't fit your definition
> of evil? Wow, I thought that was a no-brainer.

You black-and-white world is a little simplistic, isn't it? Are you always this naïve when formulating complex responses to complex issues in life?

I can think of no other logical explanation, can you? Sure, he may have been mentally ill, abused, or on drugs. But there are scores of people in all of these categories that DON'T make these kind of horrific choices. Whatever. If I was screaming about Christmas trees or coffee, then you might have a reason to call me simplistic.

Some mental illness makes people violent, other mental illnesses do not. Because a mental illness makes someone violent does not make them evil.

By this definition, every murderer in the world could be mentally ill. It's not up to me to judge the individual. The act itself is evil. What happened to those babies and their families and to those sweet teachers is evil.

But that does not change the point I was making.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/18/2012 04:53PM by MJ.

Or are you saying that doing horrible things because of a mental illness is "evil"?

justsaying I was referring to notmonotloggedin comments, that's why I headed my response with a quote from her/him.

The word "evil" has many definitions according to one's life experiences, belief systems and current trends. It has been sorely overused by Xtians to further their agenda

so there

added - and NOT just by Xtians by any means!!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/15/2012 11:40AM by mindlight.

Yes, the word evil is overused but I still think it is an appropriate application to these terrible shootings. No offense meant or taken.

((HUGS)) MJ, if that is ok

All sorts of nuts try to assign as "sign" to tragedies. Usually, it takes the form something like "[insert tragedy here] is a sign from God that..."

The problem is, people can make a tragedy into any "sign" from God they want.

Someone else gave me this hypothetical example:

"A tornado hits a gay bar, it is a sign that gays are evil"
"A tornado hits a church, it is a sign that the faithful have not done enough to wipe the evil gays off the face of the earth".

The meaning of the event changes depending on what the person claiming the sign wants. First, the tornado means that the people that use the building are evil, next the people that use the building are good people fighting evil.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/15/2012 12:22PM by MJ.

absofuckinlutly

doesn't god get the credit for saving those who were not shot ?

Oh, wait, an all powerful god allows this sort of stuff to happen. Never mind.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/15/2012 12:58PM by MJ.

Not for the atheists that were involved, yet lived

rofl

I see it for what it is: A truly fucked up act by truly fucked up person.

Someone on another thread mentioned that 16,000 more children died yesterday through starvation and disease.

Using "faith" to explain away both of these atrocities is the real evil.

I'm writing this because you mentioned in other posts your involvement with meditation and how that has expanded your range of awareness even during non-meditating times.

Of course what happens in this 'consensus reality' is a tragedy for the personality, but have you been able to abide as something that is unaffected by whatever happens there/here? My meditation experience led me to a "bright" otherness (no way to describe it according to everyday coordinates) which always already exists but is not noticed until all the habitual mental modifications have been left behind. You know that meditation may look like "mental gymnastics" to the beginner or non-practitioner, but it is precisely the relinquishment of such gymnastics. For that "bright," there is no notion of tragedy, as it exists 'prior' to any form identifications. I realized that this "bright" is at the core of everyone, every living being, whether or not it's registered by the functional awareness.

There is no way honestly to avoid the "tragedy" perspective if one is centered exclusively on one's outer identification, but if one is a meditating "amphibian," there is a different possibility of centering. In an undergraduate course on (literary) Tragedy, the professor raised the question whether there could be a 'Christian' tragedy (how did the Christian era affect Aristotle's definitions?). The same question may be raised in the context of Eastern traditions of enlightenment--is tragedy, as a part of maya, ultimately real? From your post above, I'm wondering if you go back and forth on this...

I hear you loud & clear, Richard. Thanks for the nudge.

when it was a purposeful act by yet another random asshole ... this time, with a personality disorder. I'm eager to learn which one.

Hard to say....try severe paranoid schizophrenia, perhaps extreme narcissitic or antisocial pd to the point of being psychopathic/sociopathic, or even abuse of a drug like PCP. But it was DEFINITELY something more than asperger's/autism spectrum disorder.

Better to spend time figuring out the trail of "what went wrongs" and not try to figure out where it fits into "God's plans".

Yeah, it's a tragedy. It's horrible and painful and people need to feel that and get it out.

Then we gotta figure out how to prevent it from happening again.