Sorry folks, I couldn't let my response to a terminated thread fall by the wayside. Homeless was throwing stones at fundamental science...

The theory of radioisotope dating was a long time coming, with lots of people working out and verifying models of radioactive decay and quantum physics. Some of them won the Nobel prize for their work. Many others spent huge chunks of their lives unsung, quietly advancing the science and gathering unequivocal data.

Here's the other side of the coin: One guy we call a prophet, say Moses, pulls a theory out of thin air and presents it as fact. Most likely while in an altered state of consciousness brought on by psychoactive plants. But remember, 3000 years ago nobody had the science. The best that could be done was a shamanic fable and it did a wonderful job for its day.

I read the BOM and received my witness that it was true. I got the same feeling from Rocky and Star Wars. The stories are made up, but the ideas are true. Thank goodness for the 19th century mixture of Timothy Leary and P.T. Barnum who came up with it. It may be a bridge (one of many) that gets us to the time when science finds God and takes faith out of the equation.

IMHO, the process of the knowledge of God rolling forth to cover the Earth like the oceans will be driven by science. So it's kind of silly for religious zealots to pit themselves against it.

Agreed.

Often the same people who need no (or poor quality of) evidence whatsoever for their religious beliefs require proof of scientific findings to be explained to them in detail.

The effect of religious thinking carries over into other areas and often impacts their investigative skills and conclusions.

It's not healthy to have to protect one pile of memes in our minds, IMO. It sets up inconsistencies and guarantees hypocrisy.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/06/2013 04:52PM by dagny.

Dagney,

First of all, I'm intellectually homeless, and I'm not a Christian, Jew, Muslim, or any ism. I believe the Bible is fully corrupted by man, especially the New Testament.

My view is radical. No one else thinks like me, so please, don't lump me into a category, when none exists. I agree. We need to change the foundation from faith to evidence. *All* religions are deceived on the matter of faith. See my post to Bradley.

I agree with everything you've posted recently. I think like you. You're not alone. There may only be two of us, but two makes a "we". I don't know but I believe there are many more like us.

You are the first one I've ever met besides my wife.

Bradley,

With all due respect, I'm not throwing stones at science, but I want to identify the assumptions being used. I want to see the raw data for myself. I think the thread was a good one. I was very happy with it. Many good responses and links helped me.

In terms of Moses, the evidence was not an LDS prayer process to prove the existence of God, but millions of people saw the fire, smoke, lightening, heard the trumpents, and actually heard God's *audible* voice speak the 10 Commandments to them from Mt Sinai--all at the same time! However, Israel asked God to remove that evidence, and He did what they asked, giving them the man Moses instead of Him.

God actually does want to put evidence first and faith second. Exodus 20 proves that. Moses, Israel, and man chose a different way--the dumb way of "faith". Look what it caused! Now we are all physically dying because of that dumb decision.

This is not to critise you for rightly condemning Mormonism's evidence, which is a feeling, which is subjective and no evidence at all! Good point.

says who?

you readily dismiss mormon history and the fact that it was a con, but accept a document that went through far more revisions has a much more varied history and has been proven to be just as full of holes?

I don't frankly understand how one can leave mormonism and still find reality in all the other fables (religions) that have been taught over millennia. Why? just because they are older and go back further. It really just doesn't make sense...

Occams razor is pretty sharp, don't cut yourself

Good points.

God proves by evidence to whoever He wants to, and the kind of evidence is Supernatural miracles beyond explanation--contradicting natural law. Why do I believe? I've seen such miracles--not feelings--but real tangible evidence. If you haven't, then God wants you not to believe in something outside of what you see, not to condemn you, but because you have a different path He has you on.

My evidence is not scientific, but personal, and therefore does not apply to you. I have no intention to share it like "believers" who go around trying to "prove" God exists to others, and then seek power over people by it, feeling they have done their "good deed". I don't agree with that at all. My experience is not meant for anyone else but me.

You could pray until you are blue in the face for "evidence" from God, and he may never show you. It's his decision. It's not my business. If He choses not to prove it to you, like he did to me, it doesn't mean you are any less signifcant than I am. Or that He is going to cast to you into hell, if you don't believe in him. What a bunch of crap.

Just look at the good the atheists are doing to expose the errors of the Bible and put us on the path of reason and evidence, rather than silly Peter Pan faith of Christianity, when something is seriously wrong with the Bible.

Have the religious people over the last 3500 years actually helped the people know about the errors they **know** about? Of coursed not! If they had it their way, they would have kept the world in the dark ages. They have **zero** credit for pulling us out of the dark ages. The scientists and proof did it, not religions.

That good effort and results of scientists surely is not going to go unrewarded by God. They are doing a great service to God by teaching us to put evidence before faith, as it should be.

Occums razor: God wanted to show the evidence He exists, but man didn't receive or want it, and so, he withdrew it.

That has GOT to be one of the most egregious examples of turning
Occam's razor on its head that I've seen in a long time. We
KNOW that man deludes himself. To posit a God hiding himself
from many to avoid accepting the delusions of a few is not
Occam's razor at work, but the opposite.

The Occum Razor answer explains why there is no evidence, *if* there actually is a God.

One can assume He will provide the evidence again to everyone when He is ready to do it a second time around.

It also assumes he is more interested in a relationship of non force, but prefers that we work through the problem and consequences first, and then, we will be more prepared when the second round comes for evidence to receive it.

"My evidence is not scientific, but personal..."

That's the main problem right there. Quality of evidence is important.

Personal experience has no credibility unless it can be verified externally, replicated by unbiased sources and accounts for all the evidence outside the experience.

The world is full of people who have personal experience that is only factual to themselves. Funny how the laws of physics are only broken in their minds. It's what humans tend to do.

(OK, I'm done contributing to the crazy-fest. I'm out.)

I wasn't the one pushing for the "evidence" of why I believe in Intelligent Design. I wouldn't even have mentioned it, but everyone kept asking me. Now you know. And the evidence is not visions, dreams, or feelings. It's tangible, and I have other witnesses in my family that witnessed it too. Thus, there has to be pretty strong evidence to change my mind, of course. So far, there are too many assumptions that can be logically challenged as possibly false for me to change into an atheist or agnostic. But if you don't have the evidence, then I don't expect you to believe any differently than you do, believing that God does not condemn you at all, since He is the one who withholds the evidence.

Look what he believes;
"but millions of people saw the fire, smoke, lightening, heard the trumpents, and actually heard God's *audible* voice speak the 10 Commandments to them from Mt Sinai--all at the same time! However, Israel asked God to remove that evidence, and He did what they asked, giving them the man Moses instead of Him."
How convenient for God to remove such an obvious evidence. (aand let my ancestors burn in the churches they built on his name)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/06/2013 06:26PM by quinlansolo.

How many suckers are here to believe that kinda garbaje?

Strange. I am asked and asked for the evidence, explain it, and complaints about the answer.

God didn't remove the evidence "conveniently", but purposely. Man doesn't have the power to set up an immortal environment to move us from death and mortality into immortality. He wants to prove to us what happens when we choose to put a "Moses man" in between him and us. We die. I think we have learned that lesson pretty good, haven't we? It wasn't God that burned those churches. It was man. 100,000 years in the future when we play all the video tapes, I don't think one person will argue with him over the matter. We will have the "evidence". We will all agree Israel made a huge mistake to ask for Moses to speak for God. (By the way, this grinds at Mormonism teachings that God wants prophets like Joseph Smith to speak for him. He doesn't. Never has. Not even with Moses.)

Never date outside your kind.

Isn't that an official church teaching? ;)

Oh; I thought this was a new Singles Dating site.

my bad.

Ya free this week big boy? ;)

what do U mean by 'Free'?

Well, I ain't payin' more than the cost of dinner and a movie.

this reminds me of Douglas Adams electric monk


http://theelectricmonk.com/ElectricMonk.html
For Homeless the sky will always be pink

while digging for that I found this little gem on the existence of god :) enjoy!

"The babel fish," said The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy quietly, "is small, yellow and leechlike, and probably the oddest thing in the Universe. It feeds on brainwave energy received not from its own carrier but from those around it. It absorbs all unconscious mental frequencies from this brainwave energy to nourish itself with. It then excretes into the mind of its carrier a telepathic matrix formed by combining the concious thought frequencies with nerve signals picked up from the speech centers of the brain which has supplied them. The practical upshot of all this is that if you stick a GBabel fish in your ear you can instantly understand anyting said to you in any form of language. The speech patterns you actually hear decode the brainwave matrix which has been fed into your mind by your Babel fish.
"Now it is such a bizarrely improbable coincidence that anything so mind-bogglingly useful could have evolved purely by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see it as a final and clinching proof of the nonexistence of God.
"The argument goes something like this: 'I refuse to prove that I exist,' says God, 'for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing.'
"'But,' says Man, 'the Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED.'
"'Oh dear,' says God, 'I hadn't thought of that,' and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.
"'Oh, that was easy,' says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next pedestrian crossing.
"Most leading theologians claim that this argument is a load of dingl's kidneys, but that didn't stop Oolon Colluphid making a small fortune when he used it as the central theme of his best-selling book, Well That about Wraps It Up for God.
"Meanwhile, the poor Babel fish, bu effectively removing all barriers to communication between different races and cultures, has caused more and bloodier wars than anything else in the history of creation."

God told me so. I will only believe what I observed and what god told me using that little voice in the back of my head.


What? Where am I?

Ugh was I channelling another poster again?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/06/2013 07:41PM by MJ.

Man evolved from something smaller than a bug. The scientists told me so. It must be true.

God talks to me in little voices! I can not observe anyone posting on the internet, so I can't believe that I am reading real posts from real people on RFM. I have no time machine to go back and watch them post, so I can't tell if anything really happened. It must all be a delusion and I must be delusional because that is all I can observe.

Whaaaa,

Damn, channelling again.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/06/2013 10:52PM by MJ.

The random chance theory and natural selection processes rule everything on earth without limits of any kind. Thus, man evolved from something smaller than a bug. The half-life radiometric dating assumptions of billions years makes it so. The Great and Powerful Wizards of Odds have spoken. It must be true. The answer lies behind curtains of complexity. Only the Great and Powerful PhD Wizards of Odds can comprehend it correctly. The rate of decay is constant. Thus, when they speak, we will believe. We evolved from something smaller than a bug. They have proclaimed it, and thus it is so.

I can not know what limitless is, I can not observe limitless for myself. I talk to imaginary friends on the internet, that I can not observe so I can't believe they are real. I can not travel back in time so I can't say these imaginary friends are posting imaginary posts.

Yet I will claim as truths what I can not and have not observed. That which I have not observe I can not claim as truths.

I can not claim infinity is true, because I can not observe it myself. I can not claim something is limitless, because I can not observe limitless for myself.

Oh, I claim that the only things I will say are true are the things that I observe, yet I claim things true I can not observe.


Snap, woe...

Channelling again.

There is no external evidence confirming that the Israelites were ever in Egypt, much less that they ever had a hoe-down with Jehovah at Mt Sinai. And the Egyptians were pretty good at keeping records. Nada.

Yet that seems to be one of your main pillars in believing in a highly neurotic god. WTF, dude?

Nope. The main pillar I use is personally witnessing a miracle that outperforms the atheist arguments that are based on too many assumptions.

I have heard no voices. No visions. Nothing like that. Not about prayer. Just clear evidence. A clear miracle.

Then I add people who I know, who have no reason to lie, conversing with angels. Indeed, here's one for you. Twenty years ago, a friend in testimony meeting gets up and says he goes to bed and prays to God for an answer. Later an angel appears to him to answer him. The question he asked was, "Please tell me what time is." The angel answered, "Time is energy spent while moving through space." I don't believe the angel was from God, but was probably from the devil, but who knows? I don't know. I don't believe he was lying. Anyway, this weak I found this link of the theory that the planets move spirals around the sun, that reminded me of what he said:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6jBK1ZV-qs

Or my elder's quorum president testified one day of an angel's hand stopping him from going into the street, just before a car sped passed him and would have killed him. A physical hand grabbed him, which he saw. When he turned to see who it was, no one was there.

Or the testimony of the man who was pulled right out of the lake by an angel to keep from drowning.

The testimony of my own brother of the devil/an evil being appearing at his bedside.

Or the testimony of the man who said he saw angels attending his wife's in prayer.

Or the man who testified his car and family were supernaturally moved 500 miles to get home in the blink of an eye for something extremely urgent.

These are people I know personally, who quitely live their lives outside any prominence and have no reason to lie about their experiences.

I could go on and on, but I will stop here because my intention is not to "prove" it to anyone, or try to change an atheist into a believer. If you have never had anything like this happen to you, and don't know anyone personally who has experienced Supernatural events, then you don't have to believe in God. There is no evidence. So don't worry about it. But for me, I can't do that.

Here is radical for you. Be grateful God doesn't prove it to you. When you see a miracle and get passed the "no god" thing, the question is not that God exists or not, or to deny the Supernatural, but which "god" to follow. That is a much more difficult question deal with than "god or no god". I kept running from religion to religion to find where God was after Mormonism, and finally settled into my homeless intellectual state. None of them speak for him. THe entire New Testament, including Paul and John, is a corruption.

God didn't put me on the no evidence atheist path. Which had done that, it would have been much easier to deal with, especially realizing now that the Bible is so screwed up, and concluding atheists are not going to be punished for unbelief without evidence. Rather, they will be rewarded. The Christians who are following delusional PAGAN ideas are the ones who will have to account for their intellectual dishonesty to God. They are going to have to justify believing a Bible that is corrupt just because they trusted a pastor? Where is their defence going to stand?

Atheists are in a much safer place, because they don't even believe in God, as long as they are honest about it!

All your babbling is meaningless because I didn't observe it, it isn't evidence.

Exactly, and that's what I didn't want to discuss it, but rather than sticking to facts outside of my personal life, the discussion became a assault on me personally,for what I believe, claiming I didn't base my beliefs on evidence.

Thus, I would never have shared the personal evidence, had the discussion not turned toward attacking me personally, deflecting the discussion. Like I said, some people God wants to be atheists for his purposes, and if so, he will never give them the evidence I have seen. It is not my business.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/07/2013 02:38AM by MJ.

maybe you should try one of these ;D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_helmet

Ha ha

Does it come with a motorcycle or football gear?