From an early age, I knew mormon doctrine was disjointed and contradictory. I realized that mormons were under mind control to act in unethical and destructive ways. I didn't want to follow the mormon expectations of praying, obeying and not using my brain forever.

Why didn't I dump the whole thing earlier on?

Because I was under mind control and thought "mormon" was my race/tribe/destiny.

One night I had a dream that mormonism is not a tribe and it's possible to dump it if a person is willing to give up family and friends who are taught to shun them. I left it for good that morning and never went back because I realized mormonism can be a choice. It isn't a tribe.

Call it what you will, but when it looks like it, acts like it and smells like it, I call it what it is.

Excusing the cult's deplorable behavior on technicalities? Are you kidding me? Its a friggin' cult. Doesn't require a rocket scientist to reckon that one.

Folks who have to explain their position over and over and over and over again simply don't get it. They act is if they, alone, have transcended the experience. We've all been there and done that. It was never my tribe. I was just surrounded by a bunch of loonies.

Timothy



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/09/2013 12:34PM by Timothy.

I was brainwashed from birth. I was taught to fear my own self.
I was taught one principle above all others: OBEY!

The message was loud and clear. Who you are, what you think, what is important to you does not matter. Your only worth is the worth you have in the eyes of the church.

Everything wonderful about myself was used as a weapon against me. They even taught me to do it to myself. The church and me against me.

THIS IS NOT A TRIBE. THIS IS A CULT. I am still mad as hell about it. It robbed me.

To broaden the word tribe to the point where it could include a massive organization with massive dollars and control worldwide like the TSCC is semantic borrowing at its most outrageous as far as I'm concerned.

"Everything wonderful about myself was used as a weapon against me. They even taught me to do it to myself. The church and me against me."

Well said. That is exactly what I realized once the wounds started to repair. My independence was called selfishness. The desire to look at all sides of a situation was a failure to be able to make a commitment. Seeing the good in all people and having non mormon friendships was dangerous and leaving myself open to all sorts of potential evil. The list is long.

Everything I now love about myself are all the qualities they tried to eradicate. My commitment to "thine own self be true" are the words that saved me eventually.

While I think words have deep and important meanings, those meanings are drastically affected by nuance.
Nuance has little-to-nothing to do with the dictionary definition. It has to do with cultural stigma. While those nuances may not be "accurate," you cannot deny that they are there, and pretending that they aren't will reduce the desired effect of your words.

While the word "cult" is not inaccurate, the word "tribe" is equally not inaccurate.

So it comes down to what nuance you want to convey.

If you want to convey the nuance of crazy, stupid, frightening: then go ahead and say "cult"
If you want to convey the nuance of distinct from you but not intolerable: then say "tribe"

But if you use any word with unintended nuances, then you need to pay more attention to what you are saying- NOT for any moral reason, but just for effective speech.

Saying "cult" when you want a calm exchange of opinions is naive at best, and moronic or vicious at worst.

Saying "tribe" when trying to jar someone to look out of their own paradigm is mild at best, and cowardly at worst.

Choose your words on purpose.

It means a very tightly knit group with hard held beliefs and an us vs them attitude.

I am not talking about the definition, I am talking about the nuance of cultural stigma.

When you say cult, they think Heaven's Gate, & Charles Manson, & the Jesus dude in Russia, etc...

Those have added nuance to the word that imply fear, hatred, insanity, idiocy, etc...

While it doesn't change the definition of the word, it does change the perception of the person you lump into that category.

They will perceive you as aggressive/attacking/judgmental.

So, if that's what you are going for (& it may be. I have used it for those very reasons before to jar people into self-evaluation) then say "cult"

BUT- if you think you can say cult and have a mild/pleasant exchange of ideas, then you've deceived yourself.

"When you say cult, they think Heaven's Gate, & Charles Manson, & the Jesus dude in Russia, etc..."

Yep. Does the cult's past or present activities give you cause to think it otherwise?

Timothy



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/09/2013 11:27AM by Timothy.

Ugh.... please listen to my words.
I think the church is a cult. I think it's fine to call it a cult.
BUT- you should only do so WHEN you want those nuances to be inferred.

WHEN you don't want those nuances (i.e. you don't want to put the person on the defensive) then another word like "tribe" is perfectly viable.

I prefer to use a middle-of-the-road word like "sect" most of the time.

But I myself have literally called the church a cult to a member in an attempt to jar them. That, however, is rarely the debate tactic I employ, because in MOST situations it will derail the conversation that I wish to have.

I'm fairly well versed in the language and how it functions as a communication tool, justrob. Thanks for offering the lesson, but its really not necessary. Most folks round these parts are keenly aware that I say what I mean and mean what I say. In my view, beating around the bush is a poor debate tactic.

Timothy



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/09/2013 11:48AM by Timothy.

You implied that my argument wasn't about perception & efficacy of language, but about me not agreeing with the association of the cults I mentioned & the church ("Does the cult's past or present activities give you cause to think it otherwise?")

Having already clarified that issue from a previous reply, I was frustrated to have to do it a second time.

In a post about the exactness of speech, I will always re-reply when my point has been construed.

I apologize for my frustration.

I implied that the cult is a cult. Nothing more, nothing less. You opted to go off on a tangent regarding debate tactics.

In doing so, you've managed to take the conversation away from its original intent.

Your frustration stems from the idea that you must school folks on proper debate techniques which has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Again, thanks for the advice, but its not needed.

Timothy

You did say that, but as a reply to my comment (not the OP) which was about debate tactics.

This post is a continuation of several posts about semantics, and most, if not all of them, have delved into the efficacy of words.

Had your reply been to someone else's comment, then my replies would have been tangential.

I am guilty of wanting to "school folks," but you surely understand that desire, as your replies are equally instructive in nature.

But more than "schooling" people, I desire to be understood.
If I feel a reply has dampened my point, or created a straw man, I tend to reply with clarification.

... then perhaps you should stop schooling and start paying attention.

I understood you perfectly. What I don't understand is your need to state the obvious over and over and over again.

You're not schooling anyone, justrob. You're just pointing out what folks already know.

Timothy

justrob Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------
> WHEN you don't want those nuances (i.e. you don't
> want to put the person on the defensive) then
> another word like "tribe" is perfectly viable.

So if I want to give TBM's "milk before meat" I best use the word "tribe"

I don't decide if they want to be on the defensive, that's their choice.

I'm not in th habit of walking on eggshells around anyone, least of all mormons.

Best get an industrial grade Shop-Vac if you expect me to do that s**t.

Timothy

They may think those things, but that would be an uneducated thought. Once you delve into what a cult means, you can find out it does not necessarily mean that type of org. There are many different types and layers of cults. There are money cults, there are religious cults, there are political cults and combinations of all three. Mormonism is to me a Masonic-Money Grubbing Cult masquerading as a religion.

I have seen many definitions of "Cult" that fit the LDS. I just don't see how "tribe" fits.

Here is a webster's dictionary definition of Cult that shows many of the definitions clearly include TSCC:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cult

So, your premise is, IMHO, flawed.

Totally agree with Cheryl, Timothy, and Blueorchid. Much likes and +1s!

Calling Mormonism a tribe makes it sound like a big, happy family. A tribe is about social and family connections. Some religions do exist where people consider themselves to belong to that faith because of family tradition, regardless of their actual beliefs. Mormonism isn't like that.
The Mormon religion requires its members to share the same beliefs. If you don't share their beliefs, they want you out, so that you don't infect others with your non-conformity. They use tactics like social pressure, indoctrination, interviews, shunning, and love-bombing to make people fall in line. That's not a tribe. That's a cult.

Precisely. TSCC is totalitarian. A tribe is about social cohesion. A totalitarian organization like the cult knowingly manipulates its members into sublimating and subverting their own interests in favor of the organization.

Some teenagers call each other goth or prep or jocks or what their crowd is. In some neighborhoods teens refer to their posse or gang by street. They title themselves in groups and mark their territory with spray cans like dogs pee at the edge markers. Like cows standing on piles of manure one cow is always on top of the manure pile. This reminds me of hierachy in the neighborhood men with o Gs or men with christmas lights or the halloween display between 50 year old men one put a graveyard out with cemetary plots in the other gangs name and color celebrating gang kills his group made across the street from a rival old g claiming the color of the dead people. Its ok i live a mIle and avhalf away instead of next door im so much better now! I think of these people as animals as primative humans as primates really as animals acting like animals. ( that can talk and drive cars )

Mormons marks their territory like animals on a map like gophers ground squirrels which some call: dirt rats. They dont come to your face and tell a stranger : youve got a ward youve got a bishop weve already made one it. Its underground hidden to everyone their maze of wards markers are like goPher holes in a lawn ground squirrel holes or as some refer to them dirt rats.

I dont like my old neighbors posturing like cows trying to climb a manure pile always planning assaults and laughing at death. Mormons are animals too except instead of planning to kill you like my recent neighbors kept throwing their arms up " whats up are going to do something about it" the guy with heart surgery bellows at the wiry gray haired man dancing along the front lawn with bad knees. Mormons carry books they threaten you with pronouncements of your inferiority they proclaim their superioty as they walk by. Much like the animal behavior of my old neighbor he mutters im gonna get you as he walks shoulders back belly rolling staring and the men lock eyes when he walks by the trees to the suburban mail key boxes and he gets his mail. Then mail in hand he struts never turning his back " im watching you" as he retreats to his yard. They sit in front of their garage armed with pot pipe and beer bottles with computers and car parts mechanics tools and televisions open to the air they sit just under the open door of their garage abd stare at each other.
Mormons want to convert you and Get you to swear allegiance to them so they own you . I think theyre acting like animals more subtle underground like dirt rats. On my street growing up my father told me when i was little, Ruthie no likes a rat dont be a rat ( he wasnt like the men on the street they literally moved here from east la and from the bay area to set up house lives and to fight like animals who can drive use spray cans not urine l
To mark their trritory like dogs. Mormons mark territory with an underground stealth list of wards none of the rest of us even knows theyre in. My father wasnt like them he was born here lived until he died on the same piece of land and usually threatened to kill peoPle i couldnt see usually on the tekephone or planned not yelling at a neighbor with death threats until he was good and senile unlike the two men in their fifties. Plus he was more subtle threaten to put hogs along the prperty line not kill them legally annoy them. really annoy them. My brothers wouldnt let him and led him back to his oxygen tank on the porch.

These neighbors act like animals in my old neighborhood to this day. In fact theyre trying to mark expand their trritory they have competing real estate sgents driving flying their group colors marketing every house to their gang members its like a humsn board game as the legal adults tussel for dominance. And mormons like ride by on bicycles rolling through giving out books. And the men cross their arms " did you just say what i heard you say you better get out of here i go religion for yo u" the women laugh in joy at their men boys on bicycles running books not drugs keep tslking seeingly oblivious they dont know whats going on a woman says " no he means it youd better go "

Mormons ground rats ground squirrels gsngstes dogs just dogs cows on a manure pile. Animals i tell you theyre all animals!

I use the word cult carefully in order to get my point across, but I always consider my audience when using it. I like clear concise dictionary definitions. Language only works if we all only have the same meaning for words. The problem with nuance is everyone has their own and they render conversation useless.

My dictionary defines cult as, 'a system of religious worship, admiration of, or devotion to , a person or thing esp. as a form of intellectual snobbery//a passing craze...//a creed or sect.'

Cult experts usually go much further and are more specific but most I have found are in agreement with each other.

The smoking gun for me when it comes to labeling something to be a cult is that you are 'required to get all you information from one single source." As in, when the prophet has spoken the thinking has been done.

My dictionary defines tribe as 'a human community developed by an association of, and interbreeding between a number of families, opposed in principle to crossbreeding with other communities...'
Also,'a subdivision in some taxonomic classifications between genus and order or genus and family.'

You have to have a lot of 'nuance' and 'semantic borrowing' in order to apply that definition of tribe to the Mormon church.

Assuming vast interpretations and emotions in those who hear words amounts to "mormon mindreading" as far as I'm concerned.

I know not to throw the word around mormons who are overly sensitive and accuse "persecution" over much less than the use of a word. But in my mind and when I'm with normal non-mormons I use the word because it's very accurate in describing the mormon church. My preference is actually "destructive cult."

... destructive stupid-ass cult, but that's just me!

Timothy

+1

It does violence to the word tribe to use it in this way. One could call anything a tribe under Susie's definition--political parties, insurgents, brothels, cults--and the only purpose of calling those things tribes is to be nice to them.

A tribe exists as a sort of tacit agreement between the participants that the group as a whole will promote the general welfare. Individual interests can be secondary to that, but in the big picture each person is still better off than they would be without the group. There is no such tacit agreement with the cult--it is totalitarian in every sense of the word: thought crimes, total subjugation, blind obedience, propaganda, oligarchic power structure in which the "tribes people" do not and cannot participate. The sum total of the individual's role is to submit and advance the interests of the organization.

I was going to say the cult is more like a hive than a tribe, but this isn't right either, because bees get honey and home out of the bargain. Mormons don't get any of the honey.

For most of those who have escaped, it is an insult to their dignity to be so obsequieous and pandering to the organization that hurt and used them so inhumanely. Calling the cult a tribe is a very transparent effort to normalize the patholigal structure of the cult and to normalize the harm it does to people, since it's just one tribe out of many that we all belong to. Someone bilked by a securities fraudster would not say, upon losing their life savings, "oh well, the brokerage is a tribe, promoting a True Financial Myth, so it's ok. I shouldn't complain."

"Tribe" works for active Mormons who like being part of a collective, who somehow feel a kinship to it and don't feel or perhaps recognize any downside to it. As an active TBM, I know I felt like I "belonged"

That is, until the obvious problems became increasingly apparent and I realized I didn't like being in the tribe and in fact, started to detest it. And to add insult to injury, when I realized that the top leadership are liars and purposely misleading the public and membership, then it became a hive, which is aptly the imagery that Brigham Young and others used to push the expecation that members to be industrious free laborers, to his distinct advantage.

So right Exmosis. Since leaving Utah many years ago, I'd forgotten all about the Beehive State. But you are exactly right, the workers exist to support the Queen Bee.

Fucking cult.

I agree, it isn't a tribe it's a religion and a cult. I see not reason to redefine Mormonism.

I'm with you, Cheryl, Blue Orchid, Timothy, Naomi, etc.

Calling it a tribe is a defense mechanism known as Rationalization.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/09/2013 02:30PM by mormom.

Where I come from, a 'tribe' is usually thought of as american indians.

When you use the word 'cult' people automatically think of the bhagwhan shree rajneesh, Jim Jones, or the Hare Krishna's.

It's what they know, and what they've been exposed to when they hear those words. It's how they frame the meanings of those words.