Because it closes off maybe learning something. The Oh, Dang! thread closed and I still want to say this about that "full of it" stuff:


SusieQ#1 is among the most rational voices on this board. Not the funniest, nor the most informational, etc., but the most rational. And therefore she experiences a lot of peace about the morg in her life.

I am not where she is. I still get pissed as hell about the morg and snarky and derisive, but I also do not have her peacefulness regarding it. I still get some nasty pleasure out of feeling superior to those still entangled and I still get provoked by the mormoniness of Utah. Neither of these things serve me well, and I am old enough to know better, but not so wise.

I say that SusieQ#1 is a strong and important voice here. She shows over and over again how to accept what is and how to proceed unencumbered along one's own path. If you aren't ready for that, you aren't going to recognize the teacher. The teacher will not join us in our anger, but will wait till we get to her.

How many of us have actually had the guts to post our temple names on our front doors!?

I think SuzieQ has found a path that works for her.

But there are plenty of things she says that don't make any sense whatsoever.

And there are plenty of things that I don't think are healthy by any definition whatsoever.

It's important that she posts her journey and ideas here because she has a different voice and a different approach.

But I often don't find her to be incredibly rational.

My Lord Rapter, When I wrote about Susie's being rational, I meant to convey that she appears to take the philosophical stance of being very realistic, i.e., giving up demands that things be as we think they should be and then getting horribly upset when they aren't and then harshly blaming others (or ourselves). What I see Susie doing instead is preferring that things be different, accepting when they aren't and probably experiencing only mild negative feelings about it. So she ends up not upsetting herself too much over it. She writes about ways to get to that place where we can recognize and feel the pain, but not suffer over it.

I recall Susie writing about wanting to save the investment she has put into her long marriage when she discovered the fraud and her husband remained TBM. She set her priorities and got to a place apparently somewhere beyond hurt and anger. I admire that ability to get rational (in my lingo).

Also, to iflewover, I too see the morg as sociopathic, In my book it's "a great vampire squid wrapped around the face of [its members] relentlessly jamming its blood funnel into anything that smells like money." How long do you think even a wonderful TBM man would stay with me?

I don't think that Susie is trying to condescend; I think she's probably paid her dues along the way to get to her peacefulness.

There are many people that have made highly dysfunctional paths "work for them". I don't think the LDS church is healthy or makes sense, but lots of people have made that insanity "work" for them.

I agree, there are plenty of things SQ says that make no sense and that I think are unhealthy.

To me, anyone that constantly says "well it works for me" likely does not do a lot of self examination.

The people that I respect say "Well, this is what I have tried in the past, is that good enough?", "Can I improve?" etc..

Hell, even a person that come home from a job flipping burgers to sit and watch reruns of Gilligans Island all night can claim "It works for me".

The phrase "They found a way that works for them" to me is an insult. It seems more like people talking in euphemisms as when they talk about the crazy aunt in terms of "eclectic" or "eccentric".

Posting something like a temple name on a door would not be something I would call courageous or rational. It would be something I would expect from my eccentric aunt that has found a way that works for her and her 28 cats.



Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 01/12/2013 02:36AM by MJ.

While I get what you are going for, I think you're coming down pretty hard on Gilligan McBurgerFlipper ;)

In the end it boils down to life goals. I too have a hard time watching people choose a path that isn't change driven (either yourself, others, or the world). Even if you have found a path that suits you fine, I feel obligated to change the world, contribute, help, etc...

Some people don't have that drive, & internal peace & happiness is a fine goal for those people.

...but I still prod the gilligans and cat ladies to possibly see further and just maybe jar them into a desire to affect change themselves.

I pointed out that saying "it works for them" does not say much about the person.

Saying "It works for me" is not saying they are happy. "Endure to the end" works for many. I would not say that such a philosophy has anything to do with happiness.

I knew a person that said something like "it works for me" when they came home and drank a fifth of whisky and beat their wife every night. Oh I guess that boils down to ambition as well, eh?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/12/2013 10:49AM by MJ.

Obviously not, because he is actively harming someone else.

Gilligan is just passively not helping anyone, including himself.

Granted, I too am that guy that bugs Gilligan about doing something more... but it is a judgemental thing, & I am trying to change his way of thinking to my world view (and yes, I internally think that my world view is superior to Gilligan's).

So, a person harming someone else may be what "works for me (the person doing the harm)"

The person coming home at night and only watching TV might be hurting others by ignoring them, wife, children, other family members that care about him.

But you are making judgements about what a person claims works for them. You are saying you know what works for them better than they do.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/12/2013 11:11AM by MJ.

Yup I am, as are you... which was my point about you coming down hard on Gilligan.
I agree with that judgement, and I want him to be/do more, & if he is ignoring wife/kids then he is harming someone.

But, my point is that your world view and mine clash with Susie's.

We both narcissistically think we are right, and we both prod others with our thoughts in the hope of triggering some epiphany that will make them live in a way we consider "better"

Sometimes we do sway people... but so does Susie.

So in a world with both (and more) viewpoints, we cannot objectively say that ours is superior. We can think it, & we can show evidences (i.e. effecting world change is a big one for me), but so can the other view point (even when I disagree with their evidences [i.e. "It works for me" I view as a selfish and limited goal that is far less important/noble than world change/betterment])

Now you are saying that I am a narcissist because I point out the flaws of having a "works for me" philosophy?

Wow, just wow.

There are legitimate problems with a "works for me" philosophy, for starters the "works for me" philosophy is the narcissistic philosophy, it considers nobody other than the person making the claim. Pointing that out has nothing to do with Susie and does not make me a narcissist in any way.

Justrob is agreeing with you.

I am now disagreeing with a totally different POINT.

I am standing up to the accusation that I am narcissistic. BEFORE, I was disagreeing with the philosophical construct of "it works for me".

Are you capable of seeing the difference?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/12/2013 11:41AM by MJ.

Sure, it's a personal choice. Whether you choose to live and let live, not caring if other people walk all over you, or whether you choose to stand up for yourself and draw clear boundaries, is up to you. And from talking about how strongly I prefer the latter option, but wasn't actually living that way, I finally found the courage to tell my family what I really think.

something that should be considered less one be thought of as a narcissist.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/12/2013 11:44AM by MJ.

SusieQ is without question the most mormon-friendly person on the board, and I don't think that's a bad thing.

I've agreed and disagreed with a lot of what she has to say.

For example: It bothers me terribly when someone makes the most ridiculous connection of behaviors to mormonism, like "do ALL mormons believe conspiracy theories?" Susie will be quick to point out how stupid a comment that is and give her reasons why. I'll totally agree with her on that.

Then she'll say that mormonism is "just a tribe" which I find to be utterly insane. Then I'll share my perspective on why I think that's not the case.

In the end, I love Susie's presence on the board.

I don't always agree with her, but I like her and I think it is wrong for some posters to attack her and call her names. You can disagree without being jerks.

Namecalling is more your style... exemplified by the reference to "jerks". Tsk tsk.

I didn't mention anyone specifically. Interesting that assumed that I was referring to you. Actually their are several people I.had in mind. I was thinking of more recent comments.

While Susie and I have frequently disagreed, we have done so cordially, & I agree that her opinion on this board is an important one BECAUSE it is different.

While that difference is usually the source of my disagreement, I in no way wish she wasn't voicing it.

When I have a problem, I throw it out on this board for input.
If everyone thought like me, I would get useless responses.
Instead I get a great variance of responses, which I can then weigh and make a decision.

I do think that those that attack her are missing an opportunity to rationally explain their own viewpoint, and instead just assume that everyone else is on the same page and just negate Susie's opinion.

Negation is not an opinion.
It indicates that you DO have an opinion, but it is not in-and-of-itself an opinion.

I am not sure what this is all about. SusieQ defends herself quite nicely, usually pointing out that 'what ever you say is about you, not her'. I think of her as Teflon Suzie because of that saying (not intended to be offensive)

I do not remember agreeing with anything she has said and am offended by much of it. Sometimes I give my point of view, mostly with lurkers in mind. I know I will never change hers.

The first time I got the nerve to post, she discounted everything I had said as not being unique to Mormonism. She gives as good as she gets. I don't worry about her, but I wish her well as I do everyone here.

I do think she inspires some of the most inciteful responses because she makes a perfect Devil's Advocate--intentionally or not. It is not hard to see why so many newbies ask if she is a mormon apologist. I know I did.

Back when the board dumped everything after 10 days, there were many newbies who were met by this discounting habit of hers. Strangely now that the board is archived, that isn't happening anymore...
I am glad newbies aren't met with quite as much disbelief these days.

I agree with everything you said, blueorchid.

blueorchid Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am not sure what this is all about. SusieQ
> defends herself quite nicely, usually pointing out
> that 'what ever you say is about you, not her'. I
> think of her as Teflon Suzie because of that
> saying (not intended to be offensive)
>
> I do not remember agreeing with anything she has
> said and am offended by much of it. Sometimes I
> give my point of view, mostly with lurkers in
> mind. I know I will never change hers.
>
> The first time I got the nerve to post, she
> discounted everything I had said as not being
> unique to Mormonism. She gives as good as she
> gets. I don't worry about her, but I wish her
> well as I do everyone here.
>
> I do think she inspires some of the most
> inciteful responses because she makes a perfect
> Devil's Advocate--intentionally or not. It is not
> hard to see why so many newbies ask if she is a
> mormon apologist. I know I did.


I have a good laugh a lot of time at how many people come to conclusions from what I write that are totally off the mark of what I post!
What could be the problem with showing unconditional love to everyone including our Mormon friends and loved ones? How is that a problem?

It's amazing to me that people do not know what an "apologist" is and what I have to say does not fall in that category. I do not "defend" the church as such. I do defend being a respectful, tolerant, decent person however, while showing the same respect and tolerance we want shown to us.
I will continue to contend that as a very successful way to manage one's life with people (family, work, school, etc) who have different religious beliefs. I live with and love Mormons and always will. I can't imagine how being a decent, kind human being could possibly be offensive to anyone! :-)

And I'm the one who said SusieQ was full of it. No name calling though.

While I absolutely support and appreciate everyone's right to post whatever here, I absolutely reserve my right to call someone out when they make a statement I disagree with or deem outright BS.

Teflon Susie is in denial if you ask me. There, I said it.

Just because she is able to sluff off the damage inflicted by the TSCC and always see the silver lining doesn't mean that approach works for me. I refuse to see any goodness in a fraud. End of story.

As I type this, I realize that is my real beef. Like all good hustlers (and sociopaths in general), LDS Corp gives no quarter to its victims. NONE. So they'd better damn well not expect any in return.

Susie's comments seem bent on getting us to give quarter by "accept(ing) what is and...proceed unencumbered along (our) own path."

Well, many of us are left without family, friends, or jobs because of the scam, so there will be no accepting on my part.

I hear what you're saying OP, if that works for her and others, then more power to 'em, but accept that those type comments appear condescending at best to me...and most likely, many other walking wounded.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 01/11/2013 07:52PM by iflewover.

Hmmmm... Maybe the next time Raptor and Adult of God and I get together, I'll broach the subject...

If Susie laid into you, I'd consider it a mark of mental health myself...

She once told a high profile board regular here he should move back to Utah, a suggestion that would've cost him tens of thousands in lost income.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/11/2013 09:28PM by SL Cabbie.

SL Cabbie Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hmmmm... Maybe the next time Raptor and Adult of
> God and I get together, I'll broach the
> subject...
>
> If Susie laid into you, I'd consider it a mark of
> mental health myself...
>
> She once told a high profile board regular here he
> should move back to Utah, a suggestion that
> would've cost him tens of thousands in lost
> income.

I don't recall that incident, but I do know that sometimes we make changes that are costly to keep our relationships with our children and keep a strong influence in their lives. No matter the cost.
I was probably coming from that point of view.
Just because I recommend something doesn't mean it is the best choice for the person. Only they know that.

She has an approach that works for her. She accepts nutty Mormons and their wacked out beliefs. She doesn't accept the pain or frustration of ex Mormons.

It's a good thing she's the one who left the church and not her spouse.


I hope they're both doing well.

thingsithink Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> She has an approach that works for her. She
> accepts nutty Mormons and their wacked out
> beliefs. She doesn't accept the pain or
> frustration of ex Mormons.
>
> It's a good thing she's the one who left the
> church and not her spouse.
>
>
> I hope they're both doing well.

I need to make something clear AGAIN... I am very aware of how some people have strong negative feelings of "pain and frustration." That's so obvious, it's impossible to ignore it on this board.
I don't accept those things in MY LIFE... I get out of those negative, unsuccessful feelings in a hurry. Mostly, by changing my thinking!

Yes, I needed to leave the LDS Church, hubby did not and will not. He will have a very lovely Mormon funeral when the time comes with all of his children (most who have left the LDS Church) participating.

My view is to learn to show unconditional love to everyone. That includes LDS folks especially when they are our loved ones!!!!

Susie has chosen to live with an active practitioner of one of the most outrageous frauds in American history. I made a different choice for myself based on MY definition of peace.

Yet I totally understand her perspective and see myself moving towards it. When enough time has passed in active recovery, you start to see Mormonism the way the astronauts saw the earth from the moon. Quite differently than how we see it here on earth--it consumes space and fills your vision even from Mt. Everest.

From space, earth is a beautiful planet, one of several, an object in space, the closest around, but the viewer is not disturbed by flashes of lightening on the surface and only intrigued by the eye of a hurricane crawling across open water.

Mormonism is just one young crazy religion among many on earth. That's the truth. We have our panties in a bunch because this particular crazy religion choked the "our" out of "our life" and milked us like we were their bitch cow. They hurt us and they hurt our children and we must deal with that here and now. We deal with it on this board and in other ways which enable us to back away slowly from a corporate abuser and then, when save, turn and walk away toward the sunrise.

Susie sees Mormonism with more objectivity than we do at the present moment. She is our compadre walking the same path with us and her wider view was adopted earlier in her recovery because she needed more objectivity in order to continue loving and truly accepting her husband. I give her credit for that and admire her stamina.

There are others in her position who chose to pretend to believe. We understand that choice and support those folks too, even if we wouldn't ourselves take that path. We are trying here to support ALL paths out of Mormonism while having an open and free debate about the pluses and minuses of the different approaches. A lot of people find that helpful.

It is just a sign of being early in recovery to say "you are full of it." It shows that the person still identifies with their own opinions as though their thoughts represented them. Well, they don't represent you, my friend. Your opinions today might change tomorrow. They are not you and when you realize that, it will be easier to interact with those who do not share your views.

After all, look how easy it was for Mormonism to cultivate your opinions and views like a vine on a trellis.

We are more than our thoughts and this board exposes those coming out of Mormonism to the healthy and strident views of many types of people--all of whom are providing another peek at the world through someone else's paradigm.

Is the earth filling all space like it seems to when viewed from here? Or is it a dot in space along with other bodies. The answer, of course, is that it is both, depending on where you are standing.

Susie is just standing somewhere different.


Anagrammy

That was quite a beautiful post anagrammy :)

You got the major part of my approach and explained it beautifully. thanks...!

Well put. The things that bug me most about Mormonism probably have less to do with doctrine per se, and more to do with the expression of unseemly sides of human nature such as authoritarianism, sexism, deceit, materialism....

Great post Anagrammy but I must take exception to this phrase.


'It is just a sign of being early in recovery to say "you are full of it." '

I have been out of the church for forty years. In that forty years my opinion of the church has broadened and deepened and been enhanced with more knowledge but it has never changed. I am actually as recovered as you get I think, but I still feel the pain of the unresolvable--however I do have peace about it all.

I often feel like a few people here are full of it. People say it all the time but they couch it in terms that pretend otherwise. I feel often that when SusieQ posts things here she is telling people that 'they are full of it' even though she has all the phrases down pat that a good psychologist will tell you to use in a discussion.

My first post here I was told "I was full of it" without using those words. There are many ways to say it.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/12/2013 11:24AM by blueorchid.

wow... I just found this after a long day of dealing with my husband's Hospice care and planning his Mormon Funeral, settling all the details at the mortuary. He is still hanging in there, but we are prepared for what comes next. It's a roller coaster of emotions and memories and amazingly supportive people. I am constantly over whelmed by the wonderful people who pay tribute and honor my husband!

I have said a thousand times, probably...(!) Leaving the Mormon Church is a Do It Yourself Job! You do it your way, I do it mine!

I don't need anyone's approval to walk my own path, and nobody else does either, in my view.

Learn to do it yourself and take responsibility for yourself, stop the blame game, the guilt trips, and find what it means to have inner peace and extend unconditional love to everyone. That is where I am coming from.

I'm into my seventh decade and I don't have time to spend on anything that is not successful and productive. :-) I know the hazards of negativity and how it is won't bring an ounce of happiness in the long run.

What I have found very interesting is how judgmental and negative some become about other people's ways of dealing with the mountain of mess involved in leaving the LDS Church.

Yes, I take a practical, logical, researched,objective, philosophical approach, in the main. I want credible facts to base my choices and decisions and conclusions on. I am not interested in wading through tone and bias, negativity, nastiness, and on and on. Doesn't help me one bit in my process.

That is what works for me, as that is the kind of person I am. I know who I am. I'm am a confident, outgoing, extrovert, that loves people and having fun and laughing! I own my own power and know what is about me and what is about someone else, and know what it means not to take anything personally.

I converted as a young adult, immersed myself in Mormonism which is part of what made me who I am today and the family I have which are great people. It didn't hurt, or destroy me. Not in the least. It contributed to who I am. And I am grateful for that. I'm one that appreciates the learning from The Good, The Bad, The Ugly that I have experienced. It's all part of what I have learned in my long life and 50 year marriage to a believing Mormon that I married in the temple and lived the same life for around 35 years.

My approach and conclusions have evolved. I didn't start out where I am today in many ways.

I share my approach as I have found something that is so full of wonder, freedom, inner peace, joy, and a kind of happiness I could not have appreciated at any other time in my life.

My approach is to learn to open your eyes to all kinds of different approaches to find the one that is most successful and brings the most positive results. That is what I have done.

I have learned the power of not to TAKE offense, or go on any guilt trips, or wallow in regrets, anger, hate, etc. all of which dig a hole of misery. (I don't like misery!:-)

Do I march to a different drummer? You bet I do!

If what I say doesn't resonate with you, stop reading my posts. There are dozens and dozens of posters here. Find what is helpful to you. There are thousands of people who read this board.

I will freely share what wisdom and insight I have learned as I have given myself permission to allow my new World View to evolve in the last several years coming out of Mormonism. (I officially resigned in 2002.)

I have shared much of my story as I have changed my mind about a lot of things, found what works for good mental health and emotional stability.

My prospective and approach won't work for everyone. I know that. Our process is very personal and individual. Our circumstances, history, family, etc. all play into how we change our mind about our religious beliefs and views and go onto a different kind of life, working to mesh with the situations we live in.

Take what you like and leave the rest. It is impossible to hurt my feelings or offend me as I don't give people that power to do that (except a few in my personal life, of course.)

Say what you like. It tells me a lot about you. I've yet to understand the point of finding fault with me personally or my prospective and approach. Boggles my mind!

Try some of my favorite reading materials: The Power of Myth by Joseph Campbell, The Four Agreements by don Miguel Ruiz.
My guess is that you'll learn something that will be of benefit to your process.

I wish everyone the best. You are on what has been called: "A Solitary Journey." Find what brings you the most happiness and inner peace and joy in your personal life with your family and friends.

My goal for myself is to treat others the way I want to be treated, to honor and respect everyone's rights to choose their belief systems.

I refuse to hold onto negative emotions about any religion. It's just not worth my time and energy.

"Let your past make you better, not bitter." anonymous.

By expressing my disagreement with her, I clarified some things to myself about how I really feel. I care about the truth and about living an honest, authentic life. I can accept my family members' belief in Mormonism, as long as they can accept my disbelief. I'm finally having that conversation with my family now. The contrast I saw between myself and SusieQ#1 helped me figure that out. My way isn't her way.

Naomi Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> By expressing my disagreement with her, I
> clarified some things to myself about how I really
> feel. I care about the truth and about living an
> honest, authentic life. I can accept my family
> members' belief in Mormonism, as long as they can
> accept my disbelief. I'm finally having that
> conversation with my family now. The contrast I
> saw between myself and SusieQ#1 helped me figure
> that out. My way isn't her way.


First of all, why would we have any need to agree? We are highly individual folks with greatly different circumstances! I present an approach that is very successful in maintaining complicated relationships of all kinds.

I have found the most freeing, positive, functional, successful healthy mental health approach to dealing with everyone and everything in my life. There is no denial or rationing. Those don't bring positive successful results.


I live the most honest, authentic life I have ever lived at this point. I live with and love Mormons and always will. They are part of my family and some of my friends. I want long, loving, kind, fun, happy relationships with everyone in my family and my friends for as many years as I have left. It's the only way I want to live. It's amazing!

I don't require anyone else to accept my belief system. That's about me and is personal. I share some parts of it from time to time.

I find that I learn something new from someone almost every day. People are like little encyclopedias of knowledge and experience.

I wish the same for others, anyway they find that works in their life.

We don't have to agree at all. Disagreeing with you has been positive and beneficial to my life. In all honesty, I appreciate that.

I really think this is a poor time to be dumping on SusieQ. For those of you who don't know, her husband has cancer and is in hospice. Maybe it is time to show some support or at least to keep quiet if you can't be helpful or compassionate.

bona dea Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I really think this is a poor time to be dumping
> on SusieQ. For those of you who don't know, her
> husband has cancer and is in hospice. Maybe it is
> time to show some support or at least to keep
> quiet if you can't be helpful or compassionate.


Thanks! I don't know why anyone wants to "dump" on anyone anyhow. What is productive about that kind of behavior? If they are trying to change me or offend me, they won't succeed! :)

I fell asleep on the couch where I usually sleep as I have broken bones in my foot and am in a large "boot"! Now I'm awake! Before shutting down the computer, I checked the RFM board!

I do want to say, thank you to those that read what I post and "get it" and understand where I am coming from. It's good to know that !

I want to pay tribute to Home Hospice. I have the most incredible nurses and aids! They are cut from a different cloth!
They are incredibly supportive, positive, informative, and work the program in an amazingly healthy manner.

I have a great family! My "kids" are wonderful.
We are trying our best to be prepared. Emotionally it's very difficult, of course.

I just confirmed to day that because he is a vet, he is eligible for a flag draped casket. I don't know how I am going to get through that!

Thank you to those that have been so incredibly supportive and compassionate!

I do "get" where you are coming from. I actually take your approach with my grandparents, because if I did convince them that the Morg was false, the only result would be that they'd realized they'd wasted their lives and money in pursuit of a false god. That would just be a sad thing to force them to realize.

While I do take a drastically different approach with everyone else, I don't think your approach is invalid.

Many people (including myself) feel that we have a duty to at least do as much damage to the church as we helped them during our TBM years. A social responsibility if you will.

Others feel like any inauthenticity is a repression on them, & I don't disagree.

Others, like yourself, feel like peace & coexistence is both the easiest path, & the most calming/happy to themselves, & that too is a perfectly valid path.

It all boils down to what you want.
If you want to damage the church, or help people out of it, there has to be some proactivity. That is my goal, so I choose that option- BUT if that goal doesn't make you happy, then you shouldn't be coerced into dropping your goal of peace and coexistence.

Lastly, I do wish you luck in this difficult time. I'm glad that you have good help that you feel comforable with. I hope you know that, even though we often disagree, we are here for you & care for you.

We all have things happening in our lives. That doesn't mean we should stop discussing whatever topics happen to come up, even if we have different points of view. If SusieQ didn't want to talk about her ideas of Mormonism being a tribe right now, she wouldn't post them. If she does post it, it's open for discussion.

Naomi Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> We all have things happening in our lives. That
> doesn't mean we should stop discussing whatever
> topics happen to come up, even if we have
> different points of view. If SusieQ didn't want to
> talk about her ideas of Mormonism being a tribe
> right now, she wouldn't post them. If she does
> post it, it's open for discussion.


Not tonight. I am going to shut down and try to get some sleep. Anyone can look up my posts in SEARCH.

Thanks for the fun discussion! :-)

I am not talking about discussing it, but a few posters are really carrying it too far IMO. Not you, BTW.

"I still get pissed as hell about the morg..." To paraphrase one wiser than I, being angry at TSCC does not mean there is something wrong with us, we are angry at TSCC because there is something RIGHT with us.

TSCC does a lot of things that SHOULD make you angry. To not be angry when you should be angry is not healthy.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/12/2013 02:44AM by MJ.

I fully understand the anger. It's how some folks deal with their experiences. I have been through that, but that was a long time ago and only briefly as I found it was so detrimental to me, personally.

I take a Big Picture approach putting religions into a general category which is more objective and appeals to my way of thinking.

I have discarded the notions of: wouldas, shouldas, couldas, what ifs, as pointless and useless - it's my personal approach that is very healthy and works well.

Looking at "couldas" is unhealthy?

I think most mental health professionals would say looking back and examining things you have done to see how interactions COULD be improved is healthy and necessary for emotional and social growth.

Getting overly caught up in the "couldas" is bad, but to dismiss looking back at the couldas flat out is just as wrong as getting overly hung up on them.

The way in which Susie left Mormonism sounds similar to the way in which I left Catholocism. It wasn't for me for any number of reasons, so I left. Family members, friends, and acquaintances may have been disappointed, but they were never devastated. There was no major fallout in my life.

Susie is lucky in that the people in her life apparently reacted in a relatively sane manner to her departure. That makes it easier to maintain your own composure and inner peace. No easy, but easier.

However (as Iflewover pointed out,) we have many board members whose families, friends, and neighbors have NOT responsed in a sane manner. Some have divorced apostates because the apostate changed his or her mind. Some Mormon children have shunned their parents. Brothers or sisters have shunned their siblings. People have either lost their jobs or not been considered for jobs. Neighbors have either ignored apostates or pestered them incessently.

You can make it work if there is not a huge amount of fallout. If there is a lot of fallout, the path to inner peace will be a much longer, tougher journey.

summer Wrote:
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>
> You can make it work if there is not a huge amount
> of fallout. If there is a lot of fallout, the path
> to inner peace will be a much longer, tougher
> journey.


And it may mean that there is no way to make it work with family members. It may mean that the path to inner peace is to get toxic people out of our lives. It takes two people to make a successful relationship.

Yes, exactly. Sometimes you have to leave toxic family, friends, and neighbors behind. Doing so takes an incredible amount of bravery.

summer Wrote:
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> Yes, exactly. Sometimes you have to leave toxic
> family, friends, and neighbors behind. Doing so
> takes an incredible amount of bravery.



Some of the best advice I found: let go of what you cannot control.
If people are continually critical and negative, it's best to get out of their way. (Might take several states away! hehe)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/12/2013 03:09AM by SusieQ#1.

summer Wrote:
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> Yes, exactly. Sometimes you have to leave toxic
> family, friends, and neighbors behind. Doing so
> takes an incredible amount of bravery.

Bravery, or desperation. It takes bravery to walk away before it gets to the point where there is no other choice.

Let me make it clear: there was plenty of "fall out" and nasty, ugly, hateful experiences with LDS family members for a time. I won't recount any of them as they are personal. And that was back in the late 90's.
They have eventually settled down, and some have apologized! Imagine that!
I found some of my approach initially was inappropriate and caused some anguish also. But I'm a quick study, as they say and quickly changed my ways!

I am empathetic with those that have a difficult time. I know that experience well. I also know that a lot, in my experience, depends on how I approach and deal with others. I can control, to some extent a lot of "fall out" by my approach.

Gays know all about controlling the fallout.

We can stay in the closet, not demand equal rights, get married to a person of the opposite sex, raise a family and we have "controlled the fallout". Hell, to many it does not matter how politely we say we are gay, they will attack anyway. To "control the fallout" we would have to give up all of who we are.

Trying to control the fall out is often unhealthy because it often allows others to control you.

People need to set appropriate boundaries and not worry about "controlling the fall out". If those boundaries are not respected, it is time to leave.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/12/2013 10:37AM by MJ.

+1 on josephs campbells power of myth.

It sucks to realize the myth you held as true is false, and the first thing you want to do is blame the people that sold you that myth. But one thing you will eventually realize is that in a sale there is a seller and a buyer. For some reason you were buying what they were selling. Takes two to tango so to speak.

in the church we are taught all about free agency and responsibility, but then given the tools to avoid it. It tells us to do whatever the 'brethern' want done, and if they are lead astray god will forgive us, but most important you must follow. The very reason we 'follow' is fundamentally to eschew responsibility. all religions do this to an extent and many people want that 'authority' in their lives. finding out the one they though was right is really wrong leads to much pain. That is why this board exists.

I am fairly new to this board, but when I read Suzie's posts, I hope at that age I will be as cogent and thoughtful as she is. I enjoy her input. Is it the same as every point of mine, NO! and that is the very point. If we want the freedom from the cult of mo, and the head games it plays we have to take responsibility for our actions. there are times we might do or say something to another person that will hurt them, it is our choice to do so. And if they are hurt then we must accept some responsibility for that hurt.

Suzie has chosen a path and clearly accepts the consequences of that path. It might not be the path you would go, SO WHAT! go choose your own learn to exercise your power of choice and accept the fallout of what you decide to to.

It is not a 'cop out' that it 'works for her,' not in the least IMHO. Joseph campbell studied hundreds of myths and religions throughout history, found parallels over and over again, he suggested that the human condition is such that we need a myth to believe in, it gives us a sense of purpose and fulfillment. And if you don't like whats out there, well then go create your own. If it doesn't match someone else's at least cut them some slack and show a little respect. (this doesn't mean you can't argue btw you can always agree to disagree)

So yeah it is easy to call BS, but you might not like the fallout of that call. do it or don't do it, just learn to accept responsibility for what you do. Only then will you have the power to choose what you want.


-there are things I want and things I need. What I want is a peaceful soul... What I need is a bigger gun.