Many comments here have decried how girls' camp has gone from fun outdoorsy stuff to being all about gaining a testimony and reading from the scriptures. But guys still get to do Scouting (as if it's some kind of privilege) and are allowed all kinds of time for outdoor activities, horseplay, shenanigans, sports, and are generally offered all the jimcracks and gewgaws of boy stuff. Just why is that? What has made it so out of balance?

when I was a YW's leader back in the late 1980s, early 1990s, they were changing the goal books and lesson manuals. We went for 9 months without the new program and were told not to use the old program, but they didn't tell us what to do. We were also told to have all our activities in line with a goal from their goal book.

We were shot down any time we tried to do something fun. ALL the women were discouraged. All the girls hated YW's. Bishopric meetings were only about the boys. The girls were barely mentioned. The bishop was a HUGE scouting advocate and, yes, the scouts got to do fun things all the time.

Somewhere between when I graduated high school in 1975 and late 1980s, the girl's program went to hell.

"We were shot down any time we tried to do something fun. ALL the women were discouraged. All the girls hated YW's. Bishopric meetings were only about the boys. The girls were barely mentioned. The bishop was a HUGE scouting advocate and, yes, the scouts got to do fun things all the time."

This is just a guess...from a completely outsiders view of this (never been, nor investigated mormonism, so never involved in YM's or Mutal, etc)..

From what I've read here from "old-timers" over the years...but could it be that the women's groups, started to show some...independeance?? They could do stuff without the help of the men/male leadership. Without this type of formal "direction", maybe the women started to assert themselves more and the men didn't like it.

I think I read here from a woman back in the 70's or 80's who was TBM...but had an UNSANCTIONED women's bookclub and in this club they started to branch out and read more than the church-approved stuff. After awhile the bishop or someone else aquashed this club.



Just a thought....

Just guessing here, but correlation and money may have been factors.

BcE

I remember it being basketball many times I went to the Church for Mutual. I hate basketball, so I would find a quiet classroom where they couldn't find me and read until my parents came back to pick me up. It was a 45 minute drive, and I wasn't allowed to bring my homework, so it was a huge waste of my time.

Men control the budget. They remember their childhoods. They don't remember girls having fun.

It's always money. And usually misogyny.

She's from the old school when it comes to girls camp. I've heard her talking about plans and how much fun she wants it to be. I'll have to be on the look out to see if she gets shot down. Who knows, maybe she'll get beat up by some blow-hard waving his priesthood around. Something like that might really get her thinking.

Good luck with that - everything I tried was immediately thrown out the window. Absolute "NO" was what I heard over and over. I was even told who to pick as one of my counselors - so much for my own insight - you know - the one you get with the calling? Yeah, that one - guess they just throw it out as bait to make you feel better because they will certainly made me call THEIR choice. Crock!

I don't think my two teenage sons would agree. They think the young men's program 'sucks' and they can see that the Scout program is just a cover for more church.

For example, a weekend campout for scouts (this is supposed to be Boy Scouts of America, not Mormon Scouts) was being advertised as having a "special surprise." That got their interest up and they were pretty psyched up for a great weekend. The special suprise ended up being a campfire with the missionaries giving talks on how great it is to be a missionary and all the things the boys need to do to prepare. My son said he felt just like Ralphie in "A Christmas Story" when he uses his new decoder ring to find out it's all just an Ovaltine commercial.

Yeah, always be very skeptical if the LDS church says they have some super awesome activity planned for you, but won't tell you what its going to be. 99.9% of the time it will suck. If they actually have something fun planned, they'll tell you about it, because people will actually want to come do it. If they refuse to tell you what its going to be, its going to suck, and they can't tell people what they're actually going to be doing, because if they told them, nobody would come!

LOL - good point - sooooo true!

What is a "jimcrack" and a "gewgaw"?

I have been around a while and heard many sayings. But I have never heard those before.

As far as your post,

Women are supposed to stay at home, clean and be pregnant. How is a week in the woods supposed to help them with that single goal that they are all stiving for?

A gimcrack (with a "g") is a cheap and showy object of little or no value.

A gewgaw is similar, basically a showy but valueless trinket.

Yeah, spelled it wrong. I don't spell it often. But if you look it up I think you get into a circular sort of definition in which gimcrack says, "see: gewgaw." You look up gewgaw and it says, "see: gimcrack." But you know, like 2humble4u says, something of showy, but of little value. You know. Like a flubdub.

Haha, that's like someone once asked me what "high falutin" meant and I told her, "It's like hoity toity." She was so confused ;P

I have the explanation.

Giving girls outdoor experiences makes them stronger and happier. They see strong, competent women teaching them skills which lead to thinking, problem-solving, independence.

Stronger, happier women are more likely to leave the Mormon church than weak, dependent women.

All they need is the uterus, so they are using the most effective strategy: withdrawal of stimulation so that the only path they see open for them is marriage to an RM.

One thing you can count on--this corporation will do what works. It is as amoral and blind as evolution. It is completely impersonal--like an amoeba that sucks up everything and spits out whatever is not food.

The fun did not produce the desired result, whereas it does for the young men.

Young men with happy memories of problem-solving in the wilderness with LDS leaders they admired mixed with a HEAVY dose of propaganda produces the missionaries they so desperately need. "Can you pass the test....this is how to prepare...you can do it, just like climbing this mountain...."


Anagrammy

"Giving girls outdoor experiences makes them stronger and happier. They see strong, competent women teaching them skills which lead to thinking, problem-solving, independence.

Stronger, happier women are more likely to leave the Mormon church than weak, dependent women."

That's what I purposed in my post....before I saw this one...

I noticed this as well growing up. The difference in activities between what I got to do and what my sister got to do was really quite sad. She was always a bit of a tom-boy, so she'd just come hang out with the boys whenever she could get away with it. She couldn't come on camp-outs though, so she was excluded from almost all of our funnest stuff.

I think it really all comes down to a bunch of stuffy, old, conservative, Mormon businessmen from Utah who have no idea what activities girls would actually WANT to do. They have no idea what girls do for fun, so they just take their mould of an ideal woman and shove girls into that instead.

My sister got banned from girls camp for being impure.

She had been attacked - in her sleep - by an Aaronic priesthood holding son of the TBM family babysitting her while our parents away at the temple. She was "impure" because she escaped out a window, ran to a police station, called an older exmo sister and pressed charges instead of letting the Bishop handle it inhouse. Pressure was put on my parents and sister until she dropped the charges. The 16yo boy repented and had no discernible penalty.

She pretty much avoided all girls and young women's activities after that.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/14/2013 04:03PM by spanner.

So sorry for your sister! I hate how girls are treated by TSCC, it really is horrible.

Half of our YW activities were about what kind of RM we should marry.

At one, there were a bunch of candy bars set out on a table and each girl picked one out. There was a paper stuck to the back that described the husband that went along with that candy. i.e.:

Lifesavers: You've married a hunky lifeguard. He isn't that bright, but he's strong, blonde and tan.

I picked up a Charleston Chew and it said something like "Your husband is tall, dark and handsome. But he never joined the church because of his word of wisdom problem, so he hasn't been able to take you to the temple."

Then we had to spend the hour discussing how to "fix" the flaws in each of our husbands.

Yeah, typing all that up just now made me want to vomit...

You got lucky. Charleston Chews are pretty good.

IMHO, they know that indoctrinating the girls is more crucial. The brainwashed girls will pressure the boys to behave and go on missions. They won't marry outside the temple.

Also, it's a patriarchy. More resources, time, effort, and fun will go to the boys because the girls are always lower priority.

My teen daughters ALL quit going to Girls Camp (2002-2011). They were all very TBM at the time, and even they complained that they felt claustrophobic sitting around doing crafts and talking about temple marriage and motherhood all day. The leaders were grouchy and mean to some of the girls. Finally, they were forced to stand up and "bear their testimonies" at the closing campfire, whether they wanted to or not. The leaders and some of the girls made cutting remarks about anyone who didn't feel comfortable doing so.

All of the girls remarked that indoctrination was part of EVERY activity they did. They couldn't just make a lanyard or whatever -- it all had to relate to the gospel somehow. Barf!

Sistersalamander for the WIN!!!

You nailed this one! It's not about budget. The budget excuse is all bullshit. It's about indoctrination and control. Period.

Girl's have and control the honeypot. The boys want the honeypot. TSCC wants to control the boys, but knows that it will always be difficult. So, the easier thing to control is the girls. Indoctrinate the girls and the girls will take care of the rest. Make the budget disparity the strawman and the girls will fall in line without even realizing it and neither will the boys.

Simple. Let's recap... TSCC controls the girls. The girls control the honeypot. The honeypot controls the boys. TSCC now controls the boys.

If any of you all are having trouble grasping or understanding the truthfulness of this concept, I can speak s-l-o-w-e-r for you. (Haha, just kidding. Um, no I'm not.)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/14/2013 06:20PM by Bite Me.

How did man domesticate animals.

most domesticated animals travel in herds with the alpha male.

Man, gathered up all the fillies and controlled the alpha's access to the "honey pot."

Alpha finally relented, honey pot more important than freedom. The herd of fillies followed alpha into domestication.

Jared Diamond uses this to explain why the zebra was never domesticated. Zebras, while they travel in herds, are surrounded by carnivores that horses elsewhere were not. The basic instinct of survival trumps basic instinct to breed in Africa, so zebras remain nasty creatures that man was not able to domesticate.

or as LBJ famously put it, "when you got them by the balls, their hearts and minds will follow."

It takes a lot of gospel-centering to teach young women to make their life all about the quality of the person they choose to spend it with.

Your life - all about who you marry.


Gotta have those cupcakes lined up and happy sitting on the shelf.


Ana

Because the guys are tied to the BSA. They can go to scout camps and earn merit badges. They have a lot of pressure to become Eagle Scouts, so the church can justify pushing them to Boy Scout activities.

The BSA is still ultimately in charge of scout camp. The LDS church is ultimately in charge of girl's camp.

Most troops at the scout camps I went to weren't LDS, though, so I can't say how it is in Utah.

We always went to the ones in Texas. One problem was that they did a lot of activities on Sunday. We had to do church on Sundays, even if we were at camp, so we were left out.

Otherwise, we did everything the non-LDS troops did.

The short answer to the OP has already been given: control, control, control. Control the sex with shame and fear and guilt and you control the people.

I was just going to pop in and say I'm very grateful sometimes that my dad is such a cheapskate. He would never pay for hotel rooms whenever we went on vacation or traveled for stake conference or relative-visiting. We either crashed on people's couches, or he'd find a campground nearby and we camped. So I learned how to make fire better and faster than most Boy Scouts. I could chop wood AND cook over an open fire. I could put up a tent by myself. He used to make me help him change the oil in his motorcycle and part of my Saturday chores was to wash and wax the van, the car, and the motorcycle (I usually Turtle Waxed my 10-speed while I was at it, LOL). I didn't get any of these awesome independence skills from church or from YW, I got them from my dad not really differentiating too much between "boy" chores and "girl" chores. We were expected to do them all. Chores were gender-neutral in our house. I learned how to cook and clean and do laundry and sew and can and all that crap and I learned how to change a tire on a car, start a fire, mow the lawn, and a whole bunch of other "boy" chores. I can refinish furniture like nobody's business!

So I had fun within my family sometimes, but YW was just a mechanism to keep me occupied for a couple hours a week. Seems like we did a lot of fundraisers like bake sales and that sort of thing, but I don't remember doing much with the funds. I do remember the guys going on Boy Scout Jamborees, probably with the money that the girls made making candy and selling it.

I just want to clarify something. Young men's activities were not that fun either.

I stopped going after age 14 and almost never went after I was 16 unless they had a very exciting activity. I was just too busy with school, work and other church activities.

From age 12-14 it was great to do scouting, but by 14 I was done.

When I was growing up their were lots of fun activities for the older kids to do. Youth conferences away ,scout camps ,road shows etc. By the time I grew up the stake leadership decided to cut all these activities for both the boys and girls. After this there was nothing in the Utah town for the youth to do. Drugs use and sex among the youth in the stake sky rocketed and the leadership wondered why.

My son quit going to YM activities because he said that they always promised to do fun things, then the fun things got cancelled and they got stuck with a lesson or a B.S. merit badge lecture or a service project. DS didn't mind the service projects that were real service, like when they went and cut down a small, dead tree on an elderly widow's property but didn't like the ones where only the church benefitted. He also quit because he got sick of the creepy, fake-friendly sucking up.

DD almost never goes but her Beehive leader was very athletic and at least once a month would plan something fun like hiking, swimming, bowling, wallyball etc. DD would go to those but now she has a new teacher and hasn't heard of anything fun planned in the future.