What qualities do you have to have to be a counsellor in the FP? I'm aware TSM was the longest serving 'apostle' so became 'Prophet' when GBH died, but how did he end up picking Eyring and Uchtdorf? Eyring as 2nd Counsellor to GBH stayed in the FP as is traditional, but why was Eyring picked under GBH, or Dieter by TSM? Are they great theologians, or very good administrators, or just very well connected? I always assumed the 'Prophet' picked long term 'apostles', but TSM picked Dieter, who'd been an 'apostle' less than 4 years, over (say) Ballard, who'd been one for 23 years. Give me your opinions plus TBM thinking please!!

They are definitely not theologians. They may have attended "seminary," but not in the same sense of the word as used in other Christian denominations (such as the Catholics etc.).

First: nepotism, nepotism, nepotism.

Second: skillz.

Third: connections.

You will notice that there are no fishermen, shepherds, long haul truckers, etc. among their ranks. The GA's are invariably businessmen, lawyers, and physicians... The least among us, so to speak.

The president of the church picks whoever he wants. His counselors do not need to be members of the quorum of the 12 but by convention usually are.

There have also been times when there is a 3rd counselor - Hugh Brown being one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Presidency_%28LDS_Church%29

And if memory serves a couple of people have been in the FP without even being 'apostles'. Anyone know why Dieter was picked though. Ballard is a descendant of Hyrum Smith - holy blood will help (urgh). What do TBMs put it down to - I'm guessing 'inspiration'?

With Dieter as I recall Monson has a lot of ties to the church in Germany and has spent a lot of time assigned over that section of the church. I'd guess the two go way back and Monson is the reason Mr. D got called to be apostle in the first place.

I'll even go out an a limb and propose that they probably do just as most do in the church and call counselors that they like. It's not hard to imagine Boyd & Tommy aren't the best of friends. I'd imagine the ass-lickers get first look and Boyd doesn't seem the brown-noser type as much as Eyring & Uchtdorf.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/16/2013 06:39PM by bc.

Great knowledge - I just checked and Dieter was SP in Frankfurt when Monson organised the Freiburg Temple. The cities are only 3 hours from each other so TSM and Uchtdorf must have met around then

Back in the cold war - Monson is rumored to have memorized the entire temple ceremony, word for word and then taken it into East Germany and written it down. I heard this story 20 years ago on my mission but have never fact checked it.

Sorry, scratch that, wrong Freiburg. However, the Frankfurt Temple was dedicated around the time of Uchtdorf being SP in Frankfurt and then Mannheim, both of which are in the area. TSM probably met him then and Dieter has ridden on his coat-tails ever since

I would guess that Monson was the one who made the decision to make Uchtdorf a stake president.

The way a stake president is selected is when they decide a new one is to be called a general authority - 70 or one of the 12 apostles flies out and interviews all the likely candidates. This would include all bishops, high council members & stake presidency counselors among others. They then "feel the spirit" to decide which one to call as the next Stake President. The new SP then has a few hours to select councilors and they call the new SP in church immediately before the GA leaves. 99% of the time the new SP is a bishop or a councilor to the current stake president.

Back when Uchtdorf was selected the church membership was much smaller and I would anticipate a high percentage of selections were made by apostles.

This is my wild guess.

Eyring was picked for experience and longevity in the Q12.

Uchtdorf was chosen to be there for the long haul as a caretaker/steward for a series of aging apostles.

GBH was in the same position until his turn in the big chair came along.

...and the TBM perspective?

By revelation, of course.

Even at the very low levels - including the 12 year old deacon's quorum president - that they pray about who to call and the spirit directs them who they should pick.

As has been talked about on this forum fairly recently - for many this is one of their first big cog dis moments in the church - they pray about who their councilors are supposed to be, feel like they have an answer from God, tell the bishop, and the bishop overrules them.

Side question: Do the young women, e.g. - behive's president get to pick their own counselors? (I'm thinking no and this is yet another difference between boys and girls in the church).

bc Wrote:
>
> Side question: Do the young women, e.g. -
> behive's president get to pick their own
> counselors? (I'm thinking no and this is yet
> another difference between boys and girls in the
> church).

Yep, the Beehive president gets to pick her own counselors and secretary (if there are enough 12-13 year old girls in the ward). At least, when I was a Beehive 30 years ago, we got to pick.

Thanks for jiggling the cobwebs - that's right my daughter got to picker her councilors - she just got some rather strong suggestions of who she pick...

That's still the process. My daughter was just called as beehive president, and she got to pick her counselors.

In all the wards I ever attended, there were never more girls than "offices" to be called to.
Pianist, music director, and for each two year group: president, 1st, 2nd, 3rd counselors and secretary.
So I guess my wards never had more than 17 girls at any time. I bet in UT it's different... I always wished I could just attend, without having to prepare for my calling. :P
Can't have that! No way!

The "inspiration" came in to ranking all the girls into the counselor positions. If they were short, they'd drop the 3rd counselor and then 2nd counselor, but 1st counselor would take secretary duties as well if they were that short, rather than drop the position altogether. President of class and secretary were the ones with actual duties, and secretary was supposed to be reserved for any girl who was "struggling".
I was by myself, alone in an age bracket, but since years were always doubled up together, there were usually others in my class. Pianist or secretary, forever. So glad to be gone!

I think it is also simply who you like. A stake president once told me that he'd had a discussion with the Mission Pres over his area (and who happened to be a very well-connected guy to the 12 and others in SLC). Anyway he apparently let slip that while the 12 can put on a very united front for GC, there have definitely been factions & arguments between them.

If what the SP related is true, the calling of Uchtdorf & Bednar to the 12 a few years ago caused a real stir among them and was seen as a bit of a 'wake up call' to a some of the more senior and lethargic apostles.

Admittedly I didn't hear this from the MP myself, but I haven't reason to think that the SP would have made this up - it clearly had shocked him a bit to hear this. I so hope it's true.

Just wondering as well - if people generally don't get dropped from the FP, does that mean Eyring and Dieter will be Counsellors for a while? If so, is it a move to make the FP younger as the 'Prophet' will always be old unless they change the rules?

Eyring and Uchtdorf will remain in the FP as long as TSM is alive. Once Tommy kicks the bucket, the FP is dissolved, and the counsellors return to their previous spots in the Qo12 (although as noted above it is possible to be a counsellor in the FP without being a member of the Qo12). The next president - currently BKP would be in line - then chooses his own counsellors.

Cheers. For some reason I thought it was rare for counselors to be dropped by new 'prophets' but I've just checked on Wikipedia and its actually got a few precedents

Uchtdorf is there as evidence of a worldwide church.

"We have members all over the globe! Even the first presidency isn't all American! There's a German dude!"

Presidents of Church organizations tend to choose their buddies as counselors.

But twelve years ago, when I was called Elders Quorum president in my ward, the bishop (a very pushy guy) picked two counselors for me (as well as my home teaching companion). All three guys were inactive... He thought it would be a great opportunity to reactivate them. Yeah right.

In practice, it meant that that I did ALL the work alone, since the three guys never showed up.

But it was a total disaster, since I was constantly out of town on business trips, and very often the bishop had to lead quorum meetings - there was nobody else to do it. It served him right.

A FP counselor need not be an apostle, but he must be a high priest (somewhere in the D&C) An example is Sydney Rigdon.... was a HP but never an apostle. There are other examples, but don't feel like looking them up.

Another oddity was Alvin Dyer under David O. McKay. Dyer was called as an additional counseler when McKay was becoming feeble, and Dyer was ordained an apostle, BUT never was made part of the Q12. When McKay died, they put Dyer in as an Assistant to the 12 (when they had those), and then was made a Seventy when that structural change was made. Poor guy was never put in the Q12 even though he was an apostle.

So not 15 but 16 apostles. I don't even get how the LDS church thinks their big claim to fame is 12 apostles just like in the olden days when they really have 15?

Agreed - I mentioned this to missionaries a few weeks ago and they were stumped

Udork brings two things to the FP they haven't had in a long time. 1) good looks, 2) a foreign accent. That's the most diversity they can find among the GAs.

Probably because they're not as opinionated as the other apostles, and thus won't argue with the prez as much. They're intelligent (for apostles). They're also better-liked by the church as a whole than the others, from what I can tell.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/17/2013 11:47AM by kimball.