Curious b/c I have seen these discussed on the board and it appears to be practiced by SMALL portion of exmos...

I don't claim to be a prophet of God or speak for the creator of the Universe.

(P.S. Joe's polygamy wasn't a deal breaker for me, having grown up knowing about it - and I don't practice open marriage.)

I don't see exmos bullying 14 and 15 year old girls into these arrangements.

Because (at least in most cases) when people have open relationships they are doing so because they WANT TO. In polygamy women are pressured into it as some sort of duty to God. In addition, "swinging" is an activity which is fair and equal for both men and women. Polygamy, on the other hand, the wife has to share her husband but the husband doesn't have to share his wife.

I speak ill of him constantly! However, I am monogamous at this time. I don't cheat on DW because it's not something I think would be good for me or she. Now, if I were more handsome or charming, the temptation might possibly be too much for me. I don't have women chasing me, that's certain. If looking at porn occasionally is considered cheating, (it's not) then I'm a wandering hubby, I guess.

An open marriage is exactly that: open. All parties know about each other and they all abide by prescribed rules. At least, ideally this is true.

Joseph Smith not only violated the terms laid forth by his god in D&C 132, he did it behind Emma's back. Emma not only didn't consent to polygamy, she had to be threatened by god via her own husband.

That's how.

I am like CA Girl – I knew all about polygamy and polyandry when i was in high school... I get really confused when morg don't know about it... Shows you how tightly information is controlled.

'Swinging' isn't marriage. It isn't even close. We called it 'ethical hedonism'...

I don't have to rationalize or justify anything to anyone. I didn't claim to find a bunch of gold plates buried in the ground or have a visitation from an angel with a flaming sword that told me who it was okay to force to be my 'wife'...

I have known about polygamy a long time. As a sex starved mormon I've been eagerly awaiting the day they bring it back. I have no problem with promiscuity.

What I have a problem with is sending someone accross the ocean so you can bang his wife, and grown men diddling children.

I don't swing or anything like unto it but they are miles apart in my mind:

1) Joseph Smith used his power to force people to do this.

2) Joseph Smith groomed teenage girls - several were housemaids.

3) Joseph Smith was a hypocrite in doing this. It went against everything he taught publicly. He even lied in public while practicing it in secret.

4) Joseph used his position as prophet to blackmail and con people into it.

5) Joseph Smith wreaked havoc in other people's life as he pushed this.

6) Emma was not OK with it. It was a lot more like serial cheating than an open marriage.

7) This was not a case of consenting adults.

and importantly:

8. Joseph Smith publicly, and dishonestly, trashed the
reputations of those who told the truth.

Nancy Ridgon, Martha Brotherton, Sarah Pratt, William Law are
examples. They all told the truth. Joseph lied. The result?
JS and his cronies accused them of all sorts of vile
behavior--the very kind of behavior that JS was committing in
secret. The man was scum.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/15/2013 09:47PM by baura.

I would suspect that most people in an "open" relationship don't claim to have the one and only true and restored gospel.

Also, I knew to an extent about JS's polygamy long before I left TSCC. I believed in the church in spite of that. It was learning of the character assasinations, William Law, Nauvoo expositor etc, that openned my eyes.

Joseph Smith was horny, no different than a lot of other guys out there. But that's just it, no different.

I don't have an issue with polygamy if it is truly agreed on and not forced on the partners, I was fine with it before and believed that what was good for the goose was good for gander and pretty much figured when JS said god was far more liberal than men where prepared to receive that is what he meant, apparently William law understood it more clearly that me lol. ( BTW it is kinda funny that poly-families show up in the new battlestar galactica series btw)

IMO to live in a poly relationship (happily) it takes a whole new level of commitment and learning how to get along and eliminate jealousy. Rare is the couple that can figure that all out, but more power to them if they are happy.

I do take issue with the lying about it and forcing young girls into it by in essence threatening their families.

If that was the only thing about the church that bothered me I could have totally gotten past it. For me it was the constant history rewriting and endless deceptions that lead me out. discovering the deception made me eventually question the BOM and when that cracked it all broke. You tell people its your keystone, and they are gonna believe you...

that said polygamy is a good starting point of discussion with a TBM simply because most do look down on it and some of the most obvious deception occurred there.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/15/2013 10:09PM by sparkyguru.

In Europe when you mention Mormons they always respond “Oh the polygamists in Utah. Is this still allowed by law?”
So I knew right from the beginning. Mormons are polygamists but could not practice it because of the law.

I find it very interesting that TBMs have a real sick understanding of other people’s sex life. I doubt that it would be a high % of ex INC members that became swingers or f*** recklessly around.
If someone chooses a life in swinger clubs how could it possibly be in my business?
If someone chooses to have often different sex partners, why should I care? As long are only adults involved and no one is forced to participate, I mean forced by God or because of financial issues what exactly should it be in my business to judge other peoples lifestyle? Is this even important to know? Why?

TBM’s must have really wired minds to come up with ex INC members have nothing else to do than having sex and drinking. I’ll thing Mormons are so prude and restricted in their own sex life that they can not think anything but sex and alcohol.

TBM’s are really mentally messed up.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/15/2013 11:20PM by buddyjoe.

I'd say most ,modern day swinging would be the result of a husband with a sex addiction and the wife with a severe case of co-dependency and non-assertiveness. At least that is how it is in the cases I have observed.

There are interesting responses all over the place, but you seem to reflect a lot of the TBM hatred for male sexuality (and distrust/ambivalence about female sexuality).

Personally, I'm not sure what to make of it...

Using and abusing minor girls and women as a religious dictate is far and away more disturbing than anything else under discussion.

Polygamy is always abusive to the wives and to the children born into it and I'll never agree that it's a legitimate religious precept.

I have issues with his lying, deception, and his abuse of power that. His polyandry etc are only relevant really because they demonstrate that his so called 'revelation' was nothing more than zealotry and narcissism plus sex drive. He claimed to be a prophet but these actions among others show he was not reliable in that role.

If 2 consenting adults want to be polyamorous that's their choice— but to coerce others into playing your game by claiming it came from God is just wrong.

I don't recommend open relationships. I've never seen them last and there is lots of potential for harm.

That said, if you are in an open relationship and honest with each other, then that's your affair. You just cannot pretend that God is mandating you to do this because you are his vessel.

Swinging and open marriages include choice and freedom.

Joseph Smith manipulated and forced young women to marry him. There was very little freedom or choice involved with their relationships.

Modern polygamy sometimes is based on freedom and choice, but much of that as well is done by manipulation and force.

I think you rationalize it by highlighting the difference between Joseph Smith's polygamy and open marriages, because they are very different.

JS used his position and authority to coerce women to sleep with him. He did it with out his wife's consent. He did it without the consent of the women's husbands. The husbands of his polygamous wives were not allowed to have sex with Emma. The polygamous wives were not allowed to have sex with other men. It all benefited JS, with little benefit to his wives. Swinging is consensual between all parties.

But I don't practice it. Just pointing out the moral differences.

Cheating, breaking promises and exploiting people is just as immoral for exmo's as for anyone else.

I don't much care who anyone has sex with beyond that. I choose fidelity myself.

Are you equating fidelity with monogamy? What is marriage? Sexual exclusivity? What is love? Sexual exclusivity?

Curious...

Joseph's hebephilic/very-young-ephebophilic relationships were so unremarkable to the OP that in the OP's mind Joe was just swinging when he coerced the underaged Helen Mar Kimball by threatening her and her family's salvation?

Good point. I hadn't thought about it that way before...

I guess I am used to so much slandering of male sexuality in general (in Mormonism and society at large) that I neglected to see how the specifics of his case are truly reprehensible (when contrasted with open relationships etc. where there is consent on the part of all parties involved).

You are right--not only was he a liar and going behind Emma's back the whole time but he also involved young girls who should not have been approached. He took so much from so many people, but from these women he probably took more than he did others. Unforgivable, with everything he claimed to know and believe.

In an open marriage, you don't continuously lie to your spouse about being a swinger, nor do you threaten her with hell fire and damnation if she refuses to go along.

I too am not a swinger or ever had an open marriage, but if it works for people, I do not judge.

I'm not in an open relationship, but I imagine the difference is the fact that Joseph Smith's polygamy violated his revelations from God in just about every conceivable way. They were illegal, the wives weren't virgins, Emma gave no consent, they did nothing to raise up seed, not to mention Joseph lied about it to his dying day. And to this day the church that defends him continues to instill heavy guilt in people for even extremely minor sexual acts. I imagine the hypocrisy of it all is the difference. There is no hypocrisy in an open marriage (nor does it involve using fear of God to make others, sometimes underage, participate).

What Joseph did was wrong because it was coercive and harmed minors. What you (or whoever you are speaking of) do is between you and your partner(s). Just be safe and consider reading The Ethical Slut. Some of the advice is outdated but I hear it covers "consent" and interpersonal skills rather well. :)

(Oh, and be sure to accept that this means the partner gets to choose his/her own new partners as well. Equality is key.)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/17/2013 11:58AM by Rebeckah.