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Posted by: Lurker 1 ( )
Date: January 22, 2013 01:53PM

last night I was watching a movie on Pixl with my TBM wife. A lady from New York was living on a ranch and taking pictures of wild horses. One of the ranch hands told her the Indians were grateful to the white man for bringing horses because they made the landscape so beautiful. I remarked to my wife that its strange to think there were no horses in America until Columbus came. She wasn't aware of that fact so I told her how the Indians had to walk everywhere because the first horses came with the Spaniards. I hope next time the BOM is studied at church she will think of this and ask questions. It might start a small chink in her armor.

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Posted by: blueorchid ( )
Date: January 22, 2013 01:54PM

Good luck. My doubts started with something even smaller than that so you never know.

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Posted by: amos2 ( )
Date: January 22, 2013 02:21PM

"pppff...how do they even know that?"
"I don't care what you think you know".
"you can't just fall for everything you read on the internet".
Then she complains that I don't discuss it with her.

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Posted by: Kojac ( )
Date: January 28, 2013 01:38AM

Holy crap! It's like you're running a screen play for life!

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Posted by: Mormoney ( )
Date: January 22, 2013 02:55PM

Maybe next FHE, coincidentally study that verse and say, hey, look horses. What year was this? Hmm, that's odd.

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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: January 22, 2013 03:40PM

They had all gone extinct by 8000 B.C. along with all the other large megafauna in North America. Best guess it was caused by the loss of grassland at the end of the Ice Age and some hunting by humans.

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Posted by: mysid ( )
Date: January 24, 2013 08:17PM

But there was no 8000 BC; the Earth is only 6000 years old, right?

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Posted by: buddyjoe ( )
Date: January 22, 2013 03:43PM

I doubt that she will make a connection between Horses in Americas and the BoM.
TBMs are very good in denying all sort of things when it comes to their faith.

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Posted by: markrichards ( )
Date: January 24, 2013 12:50PM

When I was under the clutches of the Dark Lord, I always had 'funny' questions that were answered with, "Well, when Joe Smith 'translated' the BOM he used terms like 'synagogue' and metal names like 'iron and steel' so the reader would understand better." I always, like a good brainwashed Modorite, took all that at face value.

On a side note, I can see why followers of the Dark Lord DO NOT want people enrolled in anything except their colleges/universities. I studied Electronics and minored in math at Sac State. I had to take a world history/culture class and that mixed with some other classes and I soon came to realize it takes a degree of sophistication to produce just iron. It takes a lot of time to get even one pound the way my Norwegian sires (back in the year 600 or so) did it. Yet, the BOM describes a civilization that is full blown; not the civilizations of barely clothed hunter gatherer society the greeted Eric the Red in about 1000 AD or the unclothed gatherers that greeted Columbus and his band of lusty soldiers of fortune in 1492.

As I read and studied history (it is a fascinating subject), I read the reports the priests made during the expeditions of the Spanish explorations. These reports were not full of statements like, "Gee, those poor people worship rocks, water and trees." Those reports were advanced re-con reports which describe the society the Spanish armies could be facing. Statements like, 'No walled cities, no gunpowder, no iron tools," meant one thing to an advancing army; bring it along. As we conquer these areas, living off the land will be harder. Cortez and his lusty crew ran out of gunpowder, had to delay their march into what is now Mexico City for six months while they attempted to make their own. No easy task as Cortez's men had to create, from nothing, an infrastructure to support manufacturer of gunpowder. There was an 'arms' race in Europe during the 13th through 17th century because the Spanish and others were facing a foe (the Muslims) that was as well armed as the Spanish and other Europeans and any little advantage by either side was a war winner. When you come right down to it, the Spanish explorers and conquistadors were armed with guns and cannons and fought well as the "Pike and musket" formation will hold off a disorganized attack, but there was one little thing The advantage swine herders like Cortez and Pizarro had over the native Americans and that was the horse.

Let us assume, for a moment the bom is a record of two different civilizations immigration/migration to the N. American continent and everything is true. Lehi and his band brought horses, cows, chicken, goats, sheep and pigs along for the ride. Let us assume the people which was scattered all across the land and one day they all decided to gather in one place for one final showdown and they were defeated in a huge battle. What happened to all those horses, cows, goats sheep and pigs? Did they get all brought along for the battle? Did the Lamanites pull out a catsup bottle and have a big bar-b-cue after defeating those pesky "Bible thumpers?" Did all these animals die off due to a lack of care? The BOM mentions 'wheat.' Having lived on a farm, wheat is not that easy to get rid of, and wheat will show up, years later on land it was not planted on. Animals in the wild do very well. Remember, a domesticated animal was once, eons ago, a wild animal. Even animals like boars (which were brought to N America from France) and domesticated in France, do well in the wild. No one is caring for all those boars, in fact here in California, the State Department of Fish and Game increased the tag limit because they are such a problem. California is ground zero for introduction of non-native species. Some Frenchman brought snails and just turned them loose. Some Spaniard missed his mustard, scattered a few seeds and now mustard is one of the top ten noxious weeds in California. Some Brit missed his Christmas dinner of Starlings" and had a friend bring a few over. Starlings are the 'rats of the air' and attempts at reducing their population have not done well. Funny, north american predators (hawks, eagles, owls) have not developed a 'taste' for Starling. In Australia, rabbits were introduced by some English lord who liked his rabbit stew. He just let them go and two hundred years later, the rabbits brought over by the English are endangering native vegetation and animals. So BOM advocates are now telling us the horses all died off or were eaten. They can't use the 'disease' argument. Animal disease (let alone human pathogens) came along for the ride with the later settlers 16th century settlers. In addition, there is no, zero, zilch, nada archeological evidence the horse lived on the north American continent after about 7,000 years or so before Christ.

A horse was the 'Sherman Tank' of its day; it was mobility in battle, transportation and helped to make a quick get away in case the tides of a confrontation turned against you. Horses were also used to chase down and destroy escaping armies/belligerents. Effective use of horses, if history has any lessons to teach us, was always a 'deal breaker.' A man could only walk about ten to twenty miles a day on average. A horse, even walking or going on a mild canter could easily double that distance. The fastest way to disseminate information was via horse, until code or alphabet signal systems were developed toward the end of the 18th century and supplanted by telegraph. As Napoleon's army retreated from the field at Waterloo, Wellington sent in the cavalry to surround and finish off the Grand Army, lest it be re-formed to fight again a few days later. Certainly the Lamanites (if they ever truly existed) would have realized the folly of killing off all the horses. Any advantage in life that a horse could bring was now off the table.

Perhaps I am looking at this through Eurocentric eyes and opinions. As a 'fan' of history, I can now laugh at some of the BOM myths and realize it just could not have existed in North America, let alone central or South America. Joseph's Myth of iron, brass, bronze foundries 'filling the entire face of the land and supporting a largely military industrial complex society just could not have happened on the scale the BOM states existed. Certainly some remnants of metallurgy would have remained. Metal pots are more effective to cook food than heating up rocks and sticking them in a reed basket. Metal knives would have made processing a killed animal a quick task. The only metallurgy that survived was melting down gold and making jewelry. Even traditions of past practice would have survived in the 1100 or so years from the 'final battle" until the Spanish, French, English and Swedes (oops, I forgot the Dutch) stepped foot on North America at the end of the 15th century. Yet we are told by BOM apologists all that tech simply disappeared and we are to take it as a matter of fact based upon the 'Burning of your bosom?"

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Posted by: Heresy ( )
Date: January 24, 2013 03:18PM

Thanks for this summary.

Jared Diamond lays this out nicely in 'Guns, Germs and Steel' without ever mentioning Mormonism. It's still one of the most devastating anti-Mormon works out there. The wife needs to read it.

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Posted by: markrichards ( )
Date: January 24, 2013 12:58PM

Here is another link regarding horse husbandry in North America.

http://www.horsetalk.co.nz/features/extinction-176.shtml


Here is another link regarding horses in America.

http://www.amnh.org/our-research/science-news/2009/late-surviving-megafauna-exposed-by-ancient-dna-in-frozen-soil

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Posted by: MormonThinker ( )
Date: January 24, 2013 01:42PM

Here's an excellent article on horses in America:

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com/horses.htm

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Posted by: markrichards ( )
Date: January 24, 2013 07:33PM

Your link brings up another point (I was getting too long in my first reply)....chariots!!!!! When the swine-herders like Columbus, Cortez, Pazarro (short list of adventurers) set foot in Central and south America, the natives did not have the wheel. Oh, yes, the wheel appeared in some toys in the Mayan culture, but it did not show up anywhere in North or South America.

Let us assume, for a moment all the horses, goats, sheep, chickens, elephants died of some horrible disease. All those 'old world' crops of wheat and rice (the native americans harvested wild rice) died off because of some type of blight. (Having raised/grew wheat on my parents farm, wheat is susceptible to a number of blights). Certainly the wheel would have survived. A wheel makes it so much easier to haul something. Even without the 'lost art' of producing iron and steel (another myth), a wheel would have been easy to reproduce, all one would have needed is a nice round tree. The neolithic hand tools of the native Americans would have been able to fashion a wheel and use it. After all, the N. American indians made wood houses/lodges.

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Posted by: Scooter in San Diego ( )
Date: January 24, 2013 09:18PM

That's the chicken in backpacks theory.

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Posted by: Anon Regular lurker ( )
Date: January 24, 2013 11:39PM


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Posted by: nickname ( )
Date: January 25, 2013 04:14AM

I can't find it anymore, but I think it came from a FAIR article. They might have removed it out of sheer embarrassment.

Its pretty much the pinnacle of Mormon apologetics absurdity. It was an excuse for the horses and chariots mentioned in Alma 18:9. This apologist said that the "horses" were not horses at all, they were actually some other animal which the Nephites ate, like chickens or something. And the "chariots" were not chariots at all either, they were actually some other vehicle of transporting provisions, like a backpack or travois. So when the king tells his servants to "prepare his horses and chariots," he's really telling them to put some chicken in their backpacks.

So even if the Mormon apologetics are absolutely right in their insane leap from any sort of logical reading of the text, all they've proven is that Joseph Smith is the worst interpreter the world has ever seen.

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Posted by: Soft Machine ( )
Date: January 25, 2013 04:50AM

The best thing about it was it yielded a great pseudo for one of my favourite posters !

Ash basically said that the horses might have been taken along as food rather than for transport purposes.

This is silly. Where I live (France), we eat horse.

One of the first things you learn about horse meat is that it doesn't keep and can be very dangerous if eaten after its "use by" date.

In other words, typical mormon apologetics: nonsense.

Tom in Paris



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/25/2013 04:53AM by Soft Machine.

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Posted by: Fetal Deity ( )
Date: January 28, 2013 03:01AM

"It’s also possible that Nephite 'horses'–at least when associated with chariots–were among the provisions that King Lamoni needed during his travels (we know that horses were part of the provisions which the Nephites reserved for themselves when fighting the Gadianton Robbers [3 Nephi 4:4]). Perhaps 'preparing' the horses and chariots would be like 'preparing the chicken and backpack.' To modern ears this doesn’t suggest that the chicken will carry the backpack but rather than a chicken meal will be prepared to go in the backpack. If Book of Mormon horses were eaten, they may have been one of the provisions loaded on a 'chariot' and carried or dragged by men."

http://www.fairlds.org/authors/ash-michael/horses-in-the-book-of-mormon



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/28/2013 03:16AM by Fetal Deity.

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Posted by: John_Lyle ( )
Date: January 24, 2013 02:40PM

What amazes me is how they ignore what was really there...

Dogs were widely used as draft animals by Native Americans prior to the arrival of Europeans.

Jo, apparently, missed this part...

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Posted by: PapaKen ( )
Date: January 24, 2013 08:41PM

There WERE horses in America during the BOM times.

It's just that when Moroni removed the gold plates, he also took all the horse bones with him.

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Posted by: SL Cabbie ( )
Date: January 24, 2013 08:43PM

The horse manure...

No wait...

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Posted by: donbagley ( )
Date: January 24, 2013 09:30PM

What Joseph meant to say is that there were hearses in ancient America. Only an anti-Mormon would suggest that hearses weren't needed in middle earth. Of course some people died and were buried in their temple garments. Gandalf prayed for them.

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Posted by: Checker of minor facts ( )
Date: January 24, 2013 09:42PM

I was maybe 12yrs old, when I leaned about horses in Jr High School Social Studies class. And, we had just talked about horses, and chariots, etc the Sunday before in Sunday School. That was my beginning of the end. I couldn't stop asking questions after that.

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Posted by: karin ( )
Date: January 24, 2013 09:58PM

Yes, this is what blew my testimony. I also remember Native class in grade school where i was taught that women and dogs pulled the travois. (being a woman myself i was pissed that that is what the women did, so i remembered that). However, i did NOT relate it to what i learned at church- i guess i was good at compartmentalizing. This is religion, this is fact. When the twain met a few years ago, i was out.

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Posted by: birthgoddess ( )
Date: January 25, 2013 03:11AM

The horse thing got me every time I tried to read the POC BoM. DH even got some apologist book to explain it and keep me on the right track. Funny that later he was the one to put 2 and 2 together and finally come up with the right answer.

"Guns, Germs and Steel" was instrumental in my exit from TSCC. So I recommended it to my RM TBM son. He and my TBM daughter both loved it, but apparently didn't make the same connections I did.

What a relief it has been to not have to do mental gymnastics whenever I read the scriptures. Nothing was more damaging to my testimony than the BoM.

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Posted by: lucky ( )
Date: January 25, 2013 05:03AM

there is always a MORmON *explanation* for MORmONISM !
if some MORmON talks about something long enough, then it must e explained!

Get a load of this idiot / MORmON *scholar*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwi0L-mwn4M

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Posted by: Wowzer ( )
Date: January 28, 2013 01:28AM

So THAT is the infamous Hugh Nibley? Never seen video of him. He is totally the nutty professor. What the hell is he even talking about. You just want to raise your hand and say, "so what does any of his have to do win the FACT that there were NO horses in America in BOM times? What a serious nut case. I need to read Martha Beck's book again now after watching this. Having this image of him puts it in a whole new light.

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Posted by: Member o'the Family ( )
Date: January 28, 2013 09:53AM

Yup, it might make your wife start asking questions. And then your father and your mother. And then Santa Claus will bring you a million dollars, but his sleigh will be pulled by flying pink elephants.

Or maybe it won't.

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