This seems like a major contradiction in that he also describes myriad ways in which is NOT a believer. He is miles and miles away from being a TBM and could never pass a TR interview I would think. Perhaps what he is trying to say is that he is simply happier running with the Mormon tribe. Based on hearing him recount his early years in previous interviews, what I recall is that he really loved the Mormon culture part of his experience growing up. I have no such warm memories of my LDS upbringing.

Based on his interview I would also say he got majorly love-bombed by his SP. When parties disagree no one changes their mind unless a foundation of trust is established first. Sounds like the SP did that by having weekly sessions with JD over a long period of time. It also sounds like the SP is pretty good on his feet and is smart enough to try Plan B when Plan A doesn't produce the desired result. It also sounds like there was weeping by both parties which helps to cement the emotional bonds.

The other salient thing I got out of the interview was the Daniel Peterson scrape. Few have positioned themselves in the middle ground as well as JD, and I've always contended that that's the best vantage point from which to enact meaningful change. The DP incident supports my hypothesis. It seems that JD was the catalyst for pushing DP and his minions out the door. Perhaps LDS, Inc. has finally learned you cannot delegate your apologetics to the Island of Misfit Toys.

This will be interesting to see how Dehlin's journey goes from here. I hope he continues to keep us in the loop.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/04/2013 04:43PM by steve benson.

Does he actually call himself a believer?

If so, I'd be interested to hear him describe how he was able to return to believing. I've been asking a long time for someone, anyone to tell me the magic secret to retaining faith in spite of everything. So far, nothing has come close to being able to solve this for me. Still waiting, maybe Dehlin can provide answers.

Even though the origin of the BOM can easily be traced to varying sources, all contemporary at the time of JS, and even though the BOM contains many errors and contradictions to science, it's still true because _________. (something other than it makes me feel good please).

Nope, he never says he's a believer. He says he's happier living as if he were a believer. He thinks the Word of Wisdom, Law of Chastity etc. help him live a better life.

People usually are happier when them and their family are treated like royalty.

When it comes to the men in SLC, they've treated me like dirt all of my life. I was a member in spite of them.

It wasn't until I learned of the lies and betrayal that I left. I guess JD can live with that part. I couldn't.

They prob offered him some serious cash or paid his debts in exchange for working for LDS Inc.

Utahns regularly claim to be the happiest of any state. They also take lots of anti-depressants and watch lots of porn. Just because they SAY it doesn't make it true.

Ah, that's sweet.

So they say
I guess he's pretty OK
After years of stormy sailing
Have I finally found the bay?

Penny talking about Captain Hammer- corporate tool.

I think Holland is a corporate tool.

One thing John is not doing is considering the longer term future of his relationships with his kids.

I know another Mormon intellectual who knew it was bogus but wanted to remain a cultural Mormon. So he did for as long as he could stomach it then left and joined another church.

But he left it too late. His son is now going on a mission and for 2 years will be indoctrinated into Mormonism. Naturally he is concerned about their relationship. His son will constantly get the message that his father doesn't measure up.

Mormonism. The gift that keeps on giving.

Yeah, happier being a big unique frog in a small pond.

Otherwise he'd be lumped in with us, just another apostate, albeit less witty than some here and not exactly admired for his waffley quavering...

Of course he's raising his arms and crying, "I BELIEVE! I'M HAPPY! TRUTH IS OPTIONAL--Yea, not even helpful!"

He would like to have a padded spot on the fence with a little rug, like Richard Lyman Bushman, author of "Rough Stone Rolling," which believers love and made me sick to my stomach. (A person can only read so many apologetic clauses before you feel like retching).

I hope he remembers in all his self-righteous believerhood that Mormons believe you are held accountable for "all you know." Heh, heh.

Anagrammy

Way to teach his son about living a lie.

How can he call himself a believer when he knows it's BS?

So he supports the generational lie, generationaly now. Where is the integrity in that? Does he teach his children the fact of the head in the hat method or does he leave that out to protect testimony? Will he give his children their "agency" and fight for it when the ward does and end around to entice them back in the fold if they question or want out or will he leave them blowing in the wind?

What has been seen cannot be unseen. Yet John has capitulated. He has been a kind of double agent. I would like to say " I smell a rat!" but he may just be the kind of person who will not rock the boat to keep the family peace which is pure unadulterated selfishness is it not? And again, where is the integrity in that? Where is the sacrifice for the truth?

And all the while the great american fraud of the LDS church gets his checks and the checks of his children and his childrens children.

It's still a lie John. It's still a lie. It cannot change, it will not bend and it is still rotten at its core. It's a lie and no power in the universe will ever change that stark naked fact.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/04/2013 07:39PM by AmIDarkNow?.

Some people really do feel like if they don't have religion to tell them *how* to live, they'll fall into a life of misery. They believe raising their children as mormons innoculates them from the rebelious phase that teens often go through (I think it's a normal developmental phase, necessary to their eventually striking out on their own).

Didn't I hear something about him fearing wife swapping and pot smoking if he wasn't adhering to the churches principles?

Dehlin seems to hang on to some potentially dangerous Mormon think:

* Thinking too much leads you astray. You need to let your feelings lead.

* You cannot be truly happy away from the "church".

* You need to confess to your Mormon church leaders.

* You and your family are adrift if you don't have spirituality.

John, there are good leaders and bad leaders. Your mileage will vary depending on which way the wind is blowing on a particular day. Your SP seems devoted. On the other hand, some of the GAs you describe seem to border on mental illness the way they change their minds and engage in subterfuge. One thing is for sure and that's that you can rely on the Mormon Church to be undependable on supplying good and reliable leadership. So why do you want to place yourself at their mercy? What have they done to earn your devotion?

Dude, take control of your life. Nobody really knows what's really going on for sure. You know as much about it as anyone else does. If you really love your wife and kids, then just do it. You don't need anybody else's permission or validation. If you think you've been neglecting them, then stop. Embrace what you know, and just accept that the rest is uncertain. Stop trying to make all the puzzle pieces fit. Life still has loads of awe-inspiring stuff to inject wonder into our lives. Isn't that what spiritually really is?

There is no perfect resting place. Life is going to serve lemons no matter where we land. It's a journey, so we have to keep on moving and find our snatches of happiness along the way and be content with that.

In John's defense, he does say that he is completely supportive of people who leave the church and go to different religions or none at all. It's just not for him.

In my opinion, John got too caught up in the negative aspects of leaving the church. It's just part of his personality - to want to help those who are struggling most - and it really got to him. Further evidence of my theory is that John briefly admitted that he still hasn't tried alcohol. Clearly he has never tried enjoying life out of the church, and has never seriously explored any other believe system (other than, perhaps, atheism).

What upsets me the most about John is that he then goes on to insist that the only was any of the rest of us are going to be happy is by devoting our lives to helping those who are suffering most. I admire his persistence, but the guy really needs to learn how to enjoy himself every once in a while. He is addicted to baggage, a there is no better place to find that than deep within the clutches of mormonism.

kimball Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> What upsets me the most about John is that he then
> goes on to insist that the only was any of the
> rest of us are going to be happy is by devoting
> our lives to helping those who are suffering most.
> I admire his persistence, but the guy really
> needs to learn how to enjoy himself every once in
> a while. He is addicted to baggage, a there is no
> better place to find that than deep within the
> clutches of mormonism.

It would be interesting to know how he handles his profession as a therapist, then. At some point you have to realize you can only do so much or it will do you in. You can overextend and leave yourself exhausted and others as well as yourself disappointed.

I have come to the conclusion that JD has simply determined he will be better compensated monetarily by being a "believer" than by being a "former believer". Dollar signs are in his eyes. I think he is creating a psychological niche in the mormon world where he will be uniquely qualified to help folks who have faith issues. Mos will go to a mo psychologist, they will shun a former mo psychologist...end of story.

I think he was doing alright with his home-brewed forums financially. Working the Mormon-controlled side of the fence is going to be tough going unless the Mo leadership can loosen up their thinking enough to talk real issues like facing JS history head on, etc.

LDS, Inc.'s mode of operating is to tell it's sheeple when to jump and how high. Under the prevailing climate they might let JD be a one-on-one psychologist, but having him do activities similar to what he has been doing under their official direction? I don't see it happening any time soon. They might offer him a paid position of some sort, but it would probably be to keep him busy and out of the way.

He would be happier believing in Santa Claus, North Pole work shop and Reindeer can fly.

When we believed that stuff was it not happy?

The fact is we have listened to John learn that the LDS church is a fraud.

We know he understands it is a fraud.

Now he freely chooses to support the fraud because it makes him happy.

Believer of what? Nonsense?

The man is an idiot but it's his decision.

Well, duh!

Going with the flow and being part of the crowd is always the path of least resistance.

Dude has no courage to stand on principles of truth and honesty.

In short, he's a coward.

John needs to grow a spine, and put his man panties on, get a real life!