Mormonism assumes esteem comes from groupthink and groupaction. Using your own brain and mentioning contradictions is unexcuseable. Personal preferences are often discouraged. So some of us who leave the morg do so with out self esteem in shreds. When we come to RfM, we can feel alone and vulnerable wondering if we're making mistakes and worrying that we are not up to the task.

Here are some phrases you might want to discount if TBMs or marginal "friends" use them on you.

You're over-reacting.

You're exaggerating.

You're just reacting to your own pent-up anger and bitterness.

You need to move on.

Just forgive the church and you'll be recovered.

The mormons are victims and just doing what they're told.

Move on.

That doesn't bother me so there's something wrong with you for feeling the way you do.

Mormons are good people and they mean well.

Mormons only want to help.

Why can't you just acctept their lovebombing as an expression of caring? They're doing what the leaders tell them to do.

There're good reasons for what they do. We just don't know what they are.

I've never seen that problem, so I don't believe it.

That probaly only happens in a few wards so it doesn't matter.

Be the bigger person and shrug off whatever's bothering you.

What does it hurt to go along and get along with mormons? They'll probably get the message eventually if you are kind and patient with them.

Just rise above whatever they do and realize their intentions are valid.

Be fair to the church. Telling only your side is mean.

Mormons have a right to expect you to comply with their expectations because that's what's required of a decent respectful person.

You're playing the victim card.

What doesn't bother me shouldn't bother anyone else.

You're not recovering the "right" way.

You're easily offended.

Don't let it bother you.

No one else is bothered so there must be something wrong with you.

More people like getting brownies on their porch than not, so you are weird not to feel grateful.

Mormons idealize missionaries so you're mean if you don't want them in your home.

Someone on the other thread catagorized these insults as "gaslighting." Meaning an attempt to discredit an individual and make them blame themselves for what a perpetrator does to them.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/16/2013 01:25PM by Cheryl.

One thing to be careful with here:

These are also phrases that are often used by those who were recently TBMs who are now seriously doubting or have even decided the church isn't true.

It takes some time to deprogram from LDS thinking. It also often comes in phases that the church isn't true vs. the church is harmful.

So, yes, these are phrases we have to deal with with TBMs. But we also shouldn't use them as a source of a witch hunt that no one is ever allowed to say them without us automatically deciding they are a troll.

Finally, clearly I hate the church, but in some cases some of the phases are true. Sometimes people do exaggerate or overreact. Often Mormons are good people with good intentions.

There are some posters on this board for whom if you aren't out all the way and don't hate every Mormon who ever walked the planet that you aren't "worthy" to be posting on this board.

I recognize that the Mormon trolls put us on high alert, but sometimes we need to give the people the benefit of the doubt.

Another thing to be aware of is there are people on this board who have the luxury of not having to interact with Mormons at all. Then there are those of us who have to find a way to continue to live peaceably with them - keep our marriage, our extended families, some of our friends, and our jobs. Those with the luxury of not having to deal with that are often not very understanding on this board to those of us who do have to deal with it. For us "taking the high" road often means not burning down important relationships.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/16/2013 11:13AM by bc.

I agree with you, but I don't think Cheryl was suggesting at all that we use these phrases as a "witch hunt" to seek out trollers or judge worthiness of apostates.

I think the important message is that well-intentioned people will use all sorts of means to manipulate apostates back into the church. This is a form of emotional abuse and some are more abusive than others.

One can't protect themselves unless they are aware of what to look out for. Especially for vulnerable personality types, it's critical to have manipulative phrases and behaviors in mind along with ways to guard yourself against them.

Agreed.

Read what I said and prove that's the point or tuck it in.

I was not accusing you of a witch hunt. In fact I agreed with you that this is a valid problem. I was saying we have to be careful not to take these too far and turn it into that.

If anything I'm probably talking to myself mostly - I publicly called someone else out the other day that I probably shouldn't have.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/16/2013 11:11AM by bc.

My mom is awesome at "gas lighting."

I taught you better than that.

I know you had spiritual experiences in our home, you can't deny that.

I have heard your testimony. How can you be sure what you say you know now is true when you used say you knew the church was true?

Why don't you consider how I feel knowing you won't be with our family in the Celestial Kingdom?

Think of your kids and how hard leaving the church will be on them. Can you really be that selfish?

You can't trust history.

You need to trust your faith and quit leaning on your own understanding.

The gospel is perfect even if the members aren't.

You're prideful and that's why you can't see the truth.

You're problem is that you think you are so smart.

Science is changing all the time. I remember when babies should sleep on their tummies and when hormone replacement therapy was safe.

You've sold your birthright for a mess of pottage.

Take that, Noondaysun's mom!

Bravo yet again Cheryl. It is so powerful and telling to see all these phrases displayed on a list together. It makes it so obvious what is going on. Gaslighting, passive aggressive, cheap controlling shots, whatever.

What stands out the most to me is that when someone is using these phrases, they are resorting once again to emotion rather than fact, feeling rather than critical thinking, hysteria rather than proof.

If these phrases are all someone has in their arsenal, that may speak to them as being too lazy or lacking the trust in themselves to verify the truth. Not impressive.

When I hear these phrases now, I just think, 'Is that all you got?' and hope they find what we have found some day.

are examples of attempts to dismiss the validity of someone's feelings and thoughts.

Successfully making a person doubt their own perceptions and feelings is extremely destructive to their ability to think and choose for themselves. In other words, it's a means to manipulate and control others.

I'm not saying this is always a conscious attempt. Some phrases are ingrained by LDS scripture or culture. This is true to the point where members even use these phrases on themselves, like a reflex:

"The church is true, but the people aren't."

"When they are learned, they think they are wise, and hearken not to to the counsel of God . . . . and their wisdom is foolishness and profiteth nothing." (or something like that).

That last one was really hard for me to overcome. I felt GUILTY for thinking for myself, as if that was a form of pride.
But if a person can't think for themselves, how on earth can they make wise choices and avoid manipulation or deception?

Answer: They can't. That's the point. If you can make a bunch of people think they are arrogant and evil if they dare to think or ask questions, you can tell them anything. And when something comes up that doesn't make sense, they'll be willing to just "shelf it".

"Gaslighting" is a good word for it. It's interesting how Mormons often use these phrases word-for-word, which indicates to me that they are somehow taught it by their church or culture or both. When my ex and I left the Church, we were both given a great deal of support from our friends and coworkers in Minnesota. Dana was given a big hug by her coworker when she heard about it who said "I'm so glad you're out of that cult. I've known Mormons before, and they are so weird. If you ever need someone to talk to, please don't hesistate." None of these unempathic "Get over it!" "Move on!" "Angry and bitter!" accusations that we hear.

Nail on the head.