I have a friend whose husband left the church. She and her children still attend. It has been very hard for them, but they are working it out. So it is possible.

Suzie Q, another poster on this board hasn't seen this thread, i guess, because she may have some great advice for you as she was in the same position as your wife is in. ( Was,because her dh has passed away recently ).

I left the church before my husband and it was very scary not knowing if he would follow me, or just accept me or freak out and leave. Fortunately he folllowed me out, so i can't comment from personal experience.

However, it might do you some good to read some of the 'topics' in the archived section- esp. the ones that seem to be the topics that changed your wife's mind. Just to see where she is coming from. Even if you never change your mind, letting your wife know you are interested in her enuf to try to understand her point of view will go a long way towards working this out to your mutual satisfaction.

As for tithing: pay on your half of the income. Let your wife do what she wants with her half of the tithing. She's earned it.

FHE: having time with the kids isn't a 'church' owned idea. It doesn't need to be a preachy evening. i hated family preach nights. Family fun nights were ok, tho. I'm sure you can come up with fun activities to do with your family.

good luck!

If either or both view their partner as in need of saving, or in need of being converted to the other point of view, then I think chances go waaay down.

It is a power position to view your spouse as someone who is stubbornly wrong, or willfully closeminded to knowledge.
And non-negotiated power positions are dangerous to a relationship.


Of course, both being on the same "side" is helpful, but I don't see that happening for jt.

I wasn't sure if his wife thought he needed to change or deconvert...
But if she is not willing to be the one to initiate a divorce, and will only push and push him to that point... Well, all he has to do is relax. She's not going anywhere, apparently.

But hey, what do I know? My opinion is actually not welcome as I am not in a mixed marriage. :D


Mormons are drenched in power position rituals though. Rank, worthiness, everything is about moving up or down in power...
One of my earliest remembered lessons was my mom explaining "how things work". A boss receives bad news and takes it out on his employees. The employees go home and take it out on their wives, who take it out on their kids, who take it out on the dog, who takes it out on the cat, who takes it out on the rat, who takes it out on the cheese.
It was supposed to be a humorous way of explaining bullies, I think, but it seemed so wrong, even to me as a child.
I've been an exmo since infancy, I think.

I wish jt understanding for his wife, patience, and calm.

I appreciate all opinions that are trying to address the question. I feel like many of the comments were not directed at making a mixed marriage work. If you can accept that I am not going to change nor am I expecting her to change yet we are commited to making this work than everything else is welcome information. I have never experianced anything like this before.

You focused on the most inconsequential sentence of my reply.

Actually you too will change over the years. I don't mean you will leave the church, I mean EVERYONE changes over time. Trying to deny that would be lying to yourself. You are not now the same person you were straight off your mission. Even in your zeal to maintain that righteousness you probably feel you developed while out proselytizing, you have changed since then.

I see an awful lot of dictatorial priesthood power in your assorted replies in this thread and previous threads. Followed by a lot of PC backpedaling.

Non-lds counseling will do both of you a lot of good. You both need individual counseling, and some together marriage counseling.





This is a separate point, down here.

You say your wife lashes out at you and then later apologizes and acts normal.
This is actually a great thing. She feels safe enough with you to share her hurt. And she apologizes!
Don't ditch her for this, help her continue to feel safe. She may even be projecting bad experiences from other parts of her life. She needs your love, don't cut her off. Go ahead and tell her it hurts you, but accept her apologies and continue to love her.
Don't act like this is actually her hidden secret true feelings, it is only an outburst of pain if she apologizes. You feel that pain too or you wouldn't be here posting.

And give her your "permission" to not go to church. If "something has to change", let it be what she does with her sunday. I think that the control you have over her "fulfilling her responsibilities" is what needs to change, but I'm also talking to a wall at this point.


In my ginormous, extended, true believing mormon family, I am the only one who has left. While my spouse is not, and never was a mormon, I am experienced at maintaining relationships with the rest of my mormon family. Parents, siblings, 22 aunts and uncles, 40+ cousins, all mormon.

I am back!

Thanks to everyone for all of the info.

I have been lurking on this site off and on for years. I have researched many different topics about the church and other religious concepts. I do understand her/your concerns. (At least I try.) I have lived my entire life as the only LDS (besides my family) in my activities outside of the Church. Only LDS in school, sports, work, profession etc. I have had ample oportunity to examine and debate my beliefs in many different settings. I am not going to change. I can handle being the only one in my own family as well. My entire point is to find out if this is possible to work out.

We have our struggles in our marriage but it is not because of the lack of love. I do not think the suggestions that it is all about love are going to be the entire solution. (I am not saying it is not part of it and the main part of it. But it is a part of it.) I assume most people are in love when they get married and half of them do not make it. We have made it for the past 10 years. There is something there. Can you just assume that and move on? There is a large change coming to the relationship which I know from anicdotal experiance often leads to divorce. I doubt there are any studies on this and so I am trying to conduct some qualitative research by questioning what is actually going on for people who have been here before me. I want to know what works and what did not work so I can avoid these mistakes.

I honestly feel if I had known more about the very legit concerns of exmormons, I could have handled my wife's concerns much better. Many of them involved my actions. I could have behaved as I should have from the begining. I think I am the person she needs now but we have so much baggage from the past that I do not know if it is going to be enough. I do realize that she could/would have the same concerns and may have reached this conclusion on her own without me but I certainly helped it along. So I am here.

I do love my wife but I have a very firm belief that she can not be truly happy with me at this point. I hope that I am wrong. I have not seen much to dissuade that viewpoint from the comments here. She is still young and I can afford to support two households until she finds her way. I do not want to stay together just for the kids or economic reasons. I know she does not want to settle and I am not willing to let her (if it is left up to me).

As far as daily living, do you prefer to be invited to participate in Church activities and then turn it down? (activities, scripture and prayer etc.) Or is it better to just do it without her when I know she does not want to do it? I have tried it both ways and it seems to cause fights.

On your last question I would suggest that:

1) Let her know that she is always welcome, but you don't want her to feel pressured. Therefore you aren't going to invite her unless she asks to be.

1a) Discuss what sort of things she would want to be invited to. If the kids or you are speaking or receiving an award does she want to be invited for those types of things.

---

I have literally spent 1 1/2 years having many, many of the same thoughts as you (hopefully that came through in my other posts to you.) I have thought at least 1,000 times - we could get along going forward but there is just too much pain and baggage on both sides to make this work.

However, we seem to be moving forward and it seems to be getting better and better. Some of the pain and baggage seems to be dissipating on both sides.

So I personally am an example of someone who thought it was hopeless and now believe it is very hopeful. I believe we will both be better off married to each other than otherwise (especially considering that we have children).

I have at least a year of experience of being almost exactly where you are - I don't know how to communicate better here on this forum - but I have learned a lot - a whole lot in the last year. My email is available publicly on here - brian@brigthbuilders.com and I'm happy to talk with you more it if you would find it helpful - I'm even happy to exchange phone #s via email if it would help.

I will email you. It will be later today or tomorrow. Thank you!

On thing puzzles me, JT. You say, "I do love my wife but I have a very firm belief that she can not be truly happy with me at this point....I know she does not want to settle and I am not willing to let her (if it is left up to me)." And you said similar things in your earlier posts as well--statements that imply that YOU have to decide whether or not SHE is happy enough in your marriage to continue it.

Why do you think it is your job to decide if she is happy? Isn't that her job? You can decide how you feel about the relationship, and she gets to decide how she feels about the relationship.

It may not have been your intention, but you seem to be implying that YOU will decide to separate from her if you decide it is in HER best interest. Believe me, if she thinks that it is in her best interest to separate, she will tell you. If she decides instead to try to make things work with you, take her at her word that she wants your marriage to succeed.

If you do end your relationship, you are going to have to admit to yourself that it was because YOU found the problems insurmounatable. Don't lie to yourself or anyone else that you ended it for her sake.

I have many problems with this point. I don't think she would have married me if she wasn't so young. I was an idiot and thought love was all that mattered. Don't feel that way any more. I have tried to keep it together for the kids and the hope that things would change. This is the best it has been in our marriage and she says that this is some of the most difficult times for her and that something has to change. I also feel like we have developed many unhealthy relationship patterns. I think there is also some depression on her part. I don't know if it is the Church, mental health or me.

So, what is best? I feel like I am the cause of her biggest problems in life. Shouldn't I end it if she won't? She will say some of the most horrible things one day and then appologize and act like it never happened the next day. I think those are the only times when she is actually being truthful about what she thinks. She keeps herself under very tight wrap.

I can go on like this for the rest of my life. I am pretty good at shielding our children from this as much as possible. But at some point doesn't the whole "if you love them, you got to let them go..." play into this? I am no where close to chosing this option, I just don't know what to do.

THIS is exactly why the two of you need counseling. She may indeed be depressed, in which case a mental health professional is definitely required. And even if she isn't, the two of you have serious issues to work through, and you obviously haven't been able to work through them on your own. It's time to get the assistance of a professional.

And no, the whole "If you love, them let them go" advice is worthless in this case. If she is so unhappy that she wants out of the marriage, that's her call to make, not yours.

What IS your call is whether or not you want out of the marriage. If her anger is making your marriage unworkable to you, you are allowed to say so. I do admire that you are committed to trying to make things work. But you've been trying, and not succeeding, It's time to try something new--counseling.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 02/27/2013 07:28PM by mysid.

" I have lived my entire life as the only LDS (besides my family) in my activities outside of the Church. Only LDS in school, sports, work, profession etc."

No advice on making a mormon/exmormon marriage work...BUT...all I gotta say based off of the comment above...There is a WHOLE WIDE world out there to exeprience thru secular eyes. You can still be mormon while experiencing this. Having ONLY experiences couched thru mormon-eyes, mormon-mindset, approved by mormons only is living in a constrained box to me. This may be one reason why your wife is no longer mormon.


As for some advice, try and do stuff with your wife, that has NO religious agenda. Go visit a catholic church because of its beauty. Go to a national park with your wife and admire the beauty of what EVERYBODIES God has put on this earth.

From a pure making marriage work standpoint, regardless of faith...

You've stated over and over that you're not going to change. If you are still the same person 10 years into your marriage as you were when you married, that's a problem. If you're the same person after having kids than you were before having kids, that's a problem. It doesn't matter what your faith is, or what's important to you. Change is part of growing as a person and living life in general.

You should not be the same person at 30 that you were at 20, or the same person at 40 that you were at 30. If you are, then there honestly is a huge problem, and it's a matter of your own fear of living life.

Regarding your relationship - your posts suggest quite a bit of my way or the highway mindset, which screams Mormon priesthood mentality and the male superiority attitude within the church - about how she's going to church like she's supposed to, how "she's still young" (when you're only a few years older than her) about how you'll eventually reach an agree to disagree position in your relationship (suggesting it's not there now). Whether or not that's intentional, I can't say - I know it's how the LDS trains men, and yes, it needs to change. It's incredibly demeaning toward your wife - whether you're intending it that way or not. I will take you at your word if you say that it's not how you intend to come across... but you do need to be aware of how you're coming across. And yes - you need to change that mindset if you want your marriage to work.

If you want this marriage to work, you need to respect who she is now. Doesn't matter if you agree or disagree with her positions on things. As your wife, she should be respected as an equal with her own thoughts and beliefs right now. Neither of you should be trying to change the other's beliefs - that's an attempt at control, not nurturing a partnership.

No two spouses, regardless of their individual beliefs, are going to agree on everything. In fact, the healthiest of relationships have some serious disagreements on heavy topics, because that's what keeps you challenged and always changing and growing. You need to communicate. If you can't do it together on your own, counselling will help. Sometimes a couples think they're listening to the other, but they're not - they're ignoring what their partner is saying and translating to something they want to hear.

I don't doubt your wife has mindsets and attitudes that need work - no marriage problems are entirely one-sided. But she's not here and you are. Keep that in mind as people discuss what you should be doing.

We're older and have no children at home. So far, DW is handling having a non-believer as a husband. She's not as happy as she would be otherwise, though. We both experienced divorce before, so that is further reason that we should make our marriage work. I just make an effort to be as helpful and loving as possible, and it seems to be working. She pays her tithing and I don't.

It's probable that I will eventually hold the record for having my name put on the prayer roll at the temple, however.

When you say, "so far", do you mean you have changed since you where married? I am just trying to understand the dynamics of a "change". I feel myself growing very resentful because she changed after we were married. I know it is unreasonable and not fair and she has every right to do whatever she wants. I just want to know if that is something that fads with time or if there is another way to get rid of it (my feeling).

Does the prayer roll thing bother you? I believe Church members are well meaning when they do things like that (because I am a member). I just want to know how it is recieved. Especially by a spouse.

For quite a while my wife was very resentful that I changed. And I was very upset that she was resentful I changed.

It was one of our biggest issues for a few months.

I could understand that that she was upset I changed. She explained that the entire foundation of our marriage was, in a sense, gone. However, it was the resentment that bothered me.

-----

My wife is naturally a very resentful person. However, she seems to have let this one go. (And she's the type of person that wears her heart on her sleeve - I literally can almost read her mind just from her body language, so I'm pretty confident she has let it go mostly.)

------

I'm not going to say this to try to convince you that how you feel is wrong or invalid. I'm going to tell you things that I told my wife that seemed to help her get past this resentment.

1) You can't be mad at God for this. The point of life according to Mormon theology is to have trials and to grow. Living a certain way doesn't ensure that you won't have them or that you get to pick which ones you have. If you truly believe Mormonism then you believe that this is for your good and you should have faith that this is how it should be.

2) I recognize this is a difficult situation, but it is not fair for you to cast me as the villain and you as the victim.

3) People change and change their minds on things. I cannot make myself believe this for you. I am doing what I think is right and true. I recognize from your perspective you are right, but from my perspective I am right. If I am right then I should grow and embrace what is true. I did not promise never to change what I believed, and I married you in good faith truly believing it at the time.

4) Yes I changed, but you also did not change. You could have changed just as much as I didn't change. We both think the other is wrong, but it's not fair that changing deserves resentment any more than not changing.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/26/2013 05:02PM by bc.

Your response is very reasonable to me and I have thought a lot about the testing and growing components of this. I guess I am having a hard time wrapping my head around a way to view this entire situation positively.

Is it offensive is your spouse views your marriage as a testing and growing experiance? As a mormon that is fine with me. I dont think she would share that. Does that matter to you?

I feel like this kind of marriage is going to be a daily series of negoitations and compromises (not that marriage isn't already) of extremely minute details. It is exausting me just thinking about it. I already walk on eggshells every second I am home.

I have no problem with her viewing it as a test.

It did feel like daily negotiations - however, over time it has gotten less that way. We've fallen into a pattern and figured it out for the most part.

The situation certainly isn't entirely positively. If I had my choice I would have her believe the same as me, and vice versa. However, all else being equal I would much prefer being married to the mother of my children who believes differently than me to be married to someone else who believes the same as me. I am also confident that she feels the same way. It took both of us a while to sort that out and be sure that is how we feel and be sure we believed that is how the other feels.

I'm going to recommend this book to you again (but specifically this time):

http://www.gottman.com/49862/581059/DVD-Workshop-Books--Lectures/Seven-Principles-for-Making-Relationships-Work----Book--Lecture.html

Here's the key to this book. He talks about how to resolve different sets of issues in this book:

1) Issues that have an easy compromise
2) Issues that have an OK compromise
3) Issues that have no compromise

It's the 3rd one that was a game changer in my thinking for me. Basically what Gottman found is that virtually all successful long term marriages have some issues where there is no solution to the problem - where there is no compromise. There are problems where there is not OK compromise for both partners. The key is to accept that these are going to exists - in any marriage - and then work around them.

It gives details and ideas of how successful couples work around these types of issues - the bottom line is that you avoid making a big deal about them and you learn ways to work around them.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/26/2013 05:32PM by bc.

One more quick point - here in Utah county there are a bunch of us exmos who meet up for lunch or coffee fairly often.

There are MANY of us in the group with mixed faith marriages that are working. A number of the people that I talk to regularly have been successfully navigating this for several years.

jtlang Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I feel myself growing very resentful because she changed
> after we were married.

EVERYONE eventually changes after they're married. The ways may vary, but they still change.


> Does the prayer roll thing bother you? I believe
> Church members are well meaning when they do
> things like that (because I am a member). I just
> want to know how it is recieved. Especially by a
> spouse.

Personally, it's a bad idea. (If you must do it, make sure she NEVER finds out.) It's insulting, patronizing, and it has the effect of saying "despite what I say to you, I still think you're broken, mistaken, sinning (or fill in the blank) and I'll get you to come back yet. It evokes the same negative reaction and feelings that arise when someone says "we miss you!" because it's all bullcrap.

Have you seen John Delin's thing on u tube about why Mormons leave and how as a member you can understand how and what she feels?

I have seen him mentioned a lot lately. I will check out his podcasts. Thank you!

haha. How can a member understand how an enlightened resigner feels?
That is impossible as the two people will be on completely opposite stance on the truthfullness of the MORG.
Mutual respect, maybe. But understanding, never. John Dehlin is just as useless as the mormon apologists. They can never reason away the hard evidence against the MORG.

So, are you saying it would be impossible for a mix marriage to "truly" work?

No. It can work. I was just commenting on Dehlin's "work".
I wasn't implying it in a marriage. Just

In a marriage you have a strong relationship/committment factor between the spouses, which can resolve just about anything.

If you think about it, it's always one of the spouse who first discovers the truth about the MORG. Me and my wife were life-long members, and I was the first one to crack.
From my personal experience, it was super scary to break the news to her and help her join me.
Fortunately, it worked out fine for both of us, and we are now happily no-mos.

I am 6 years older than her. I had this experiance (finding out there are "issues" with the Church) before, during and after my mission and I resolved it for myself. When she had this experiance after our marriage and in college, I was not very understanding or supportive and it drove a wedge between us a mile wide which is still there. She has been attending church and doing everything she is supposed to, but it is reaching a breaking point for her so i am trying to figure out how not to screw this up again.

In you opinion, could you have made it work if both of you had not left?

jtlang Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> She
> has been attending church and doing everything she
> is supposed to, but it is reaching a breaking
> point for her so i am trying to figure out how not
> to screw this up again.
>
> In you opinion, could you have made it work if
> both of you had not left?

When you say she is attending church and is doping everything she is supposed to do, is this her choice or is it at your urging?

"In you opinion, could you have made it work if both of you had not left?"

I'm sorry I didn't understand the issue at first. I think you're asking if you can remain a TBM, while she leaves. That is entirely up to how much you want the marriage to work despite the religious differences.
My mom was married to my dad who wasn't a member. They are still together.
Anything is possible, and impossible too. If it is any encouragement, you can preserve this marriage despite all difficulties.

What do you mean, I mean REALLY mean, by the following:

"She has been attending church and doing everything she is supposed to..."

The phrase "everything she is supposed to" sounds incredibly dictatorial and presumptive on your part. Perhaps for your wife, drinking a glass of wine with dinner in the evening, and drinking a good cup of coffee in the morning, is what she feels is something "she is supposed to" do.

Maybe that's why she is so angry, because her husband is trying to prescribe to her her life framework of "supposed to" and "not supposed to" activities and thoughts.



And as an aside, how can you state so emphatically that you will never change, ever? Are you positive? I think I know where I'll be and what I'll think 10 years from today, but honestly, over the years I've learned just how fluid and dynamic life is, and my perception of the same. I may have an inkling of where I'll be in 10 years, but conclusively, impossible to project.

I am the one who left over 2 years ago and my husband is still TBM (actually, he's worse than ever, as if he has to 'make up' for my failings). I will be honest -- our marriage is a mess and held together by the most fragile thread. Why? Because I see him putting all his church duties ahead of me, and he sees me as sacrificing our 'eternal marriage' to my 'weakness'. If you both really love each other regardless of religion and can allow one another the genuine freedom to be yourselves, it can work. This will be very hard for you, as your church callings/meetings/etc will regularly ask you to push her needs to the bottom of your priority list. Let her know you love her and enjoy being with her even though she no longer fits the Mormon wife role. I could ramble on endlessly, but... feel free to ask me anything - I will be brutally honest about my own experience.

Thanks! I apprecitate all you have offered. I have to go home now but I will be back!

A brief history so you know where I'm coming from.

I am a born in the church, 2nd generation former TBM. I believed it all, I researched it all. I was known in seminary and the youth program as the "Walking Bible" if you had a religious question, you came and asked me. I did book reports in school based on things like Joseph Smith's Biography. I knew about polygamy, Kolob, what eternal progression really means, and many other troubling doctrinal points that many have a problem with and helped lead them out, but due to how I was raised, it was all good. I served a mission in Korea and didn't date until after my mission so I would avoid distractions. I've been to the temple countless times. My mother has taught seminary most of my life (35+ years) and my Dad has either been in a bishopric or on the High Council as long as I can remember. So, when I say, I know where you're coming from that you can "know it all but, I'm never going to leave" I can understand where you're coming from (obviously that has changed as I did resign after a lot of research and trial).

Shortly after my mission, I met my wife in church. We fell in love immediately, we were married within 6 months of our first meeting. We love each other very much and love has never been a problem, so your earlier comment about love not being the only factor is very, very true.

About 2 years after we were married, my wife started having issues with the church, I won't go into details, because really, it doesn't matter, she no longer wanted to attend and ultimately stopped attending. This was a complete shock to me. I never imagined that when we married (in the temple) that this would ever happen. I was working in Young Men's and she was popular in Relief Society. When she stopped attending and I showed up alone, it raised several questions in the ward about her health, if she was offended, all the standard responses. And most interestingly, everyone, and I do mean everyone, questioned our relationship and people assumed that we were having marital problems, when we weren't.

What life advice can I give you? Well, my wife and I are still married, we did have some trouble, mainly due to the church, but we were always in love and always happy together. We made it work. Eventually, due to reasons unrelated to her "apostasy" I eventually went inactive and finally resigned from the church myself (but that's a different story).

First and foremost, it was not easy. There is no magic formula, something that worked for us may not work at all for you.

- Respect each other. This should be obvious in any marriage, but it's unfortunately not. You have to find a way to respect her, even if you don't agree with her. Respect that she is allowed to believe the way that she wants to and remember that her beliefs do not mean that she no longer loves you. Love and beliefs are separate things, and if she can respect you enough to let you believe the way you want to you should respect her the same.

- Things are going to be difficult for you. They just are. The Church non-verbally teaches that mixed belief marriages are doomed to fail. Often they do, but not always. Mixed belief marriages where neither are LDS are often very successful and most people don't worry about it at all. The LDS church teaches that mixed marriages should be avoided, almost at all cost. (I don't have the quotes handy, but the prophet or one of the 12 have actually taught this). This is not necessarily true, mixed belief marriages have their difficulties, but they are not doomed to failure.

- What are you going to have to deal with? (these may sound harsh, but I have had to deal with each and every one and you need to be prepared)
- People will suggest that you divorce. It happened to me numerous times.
- People will assume that she is sinning in some way. It will be up to you to correct people, especially if you don't want word getting back to your wife that people are talking to you about her behind her back.
- You will become a project, people will be extra supportive of you in your "trial" of having an "evil apostate wife" (yes, that has been said to me.)
- You will loose prestige in the ward/branch. If you had important callings, you will lose them and be given things like primary teacher. You will be seen as a failure because you, as the priesthood holder, could not set the example to keep your wife active.
- People will look at you in the hallway with that "sad knowing" look that says, you poor thing, how does he manage.

- How do you make it work? Open communication and Compromise.
- I can't stress it enough, talk to your wife! Let her know your concerns. Let her know that you want to stay married. Let her know that you are worried about her leaving the church, but that doesn't change how you feel about her. Repeat this as often as possible.
- Go on dates! Get out of the house and have fun, especially in non-church settings.
- You will need to discuss tithing and how it's going to be paid. If you won't bend on this, depending on her thoughts, that may be a major breaking point. You can talk to your bishop if you need to make concessions, and if he's understanding you may be able to remain a "full" tithe payer, or you may not. It all depends on him.
- I don't know if you have kids, but if you do, you will need to decide how they are going to be raised. You may think, it's all church all the time, but that's not fair, she should have an equal say as well.
- Discuss your time spent at the church. This was a major sticking point for my wife and I. I never realized just how much time the church was taking, until it was taking away time between her and me. She hated, and I do mean hated, how much time I spent at church and not with her. For me to make it work, I asked to be released from some of my callings that were taking the majority of my time.

Remember, the church teaches that family comes before church. I don't remember who said it, but I always remember the quote from one of the leaders that said "Nothing can compensate for failure in the home." Losing my wife would have been a failure. Church was very important, but my wife came first. I was still able to go to church and do the things that was able to without losing my wife, because I made sure that she knew that she came before church. Because she respected and loved me, she was OK with me continuing with church, because she saw what it meant to me.

You can make it work, it won't be easy, but you can. I hope this helps...

Thank you. I appreciate you taking the time to share your story with me. I really struggle with the communication because I was so dismissive of her concerns when this all started. She never talks to me about this and consequently we rarely talk about anything of consequence without fighting.

Anyone have any good examples of reopening those communication lines? I feel so insincere at this point. Same goes for all the little things you should be doing for your wife to let her know you love her. Everything feels so fake that I quit even before I start.

You have to start somewhere. Those little things may feel fake now, but you have to keep trying. You have to go out of your way to build new habits... They will feel unnatural at first, they will be hard and you will make mistakes, but if you keep at it, hopefully, you can work through it.

When you go on dates, and over meals, do not talk about religion or things that you know will cause an argument. (Because really, you know what buttons to push, we all do when we love someone.) If an argument starts, work to defuse it as quickly as possible. Do not play the victim and cast her as the villain nor let her play the victim and you be the villain. Blame solves nothing. She's leaving the church, you aren't. Those seem to be facts... Move on and work on your marriage.

Yes, you made some mistakes, major ones even. You were dismissive of her before now. You can change that starting now. Don't be dismissive of her now. Apologize to her for the mistakes that you made in the past. Let her know that this is important to you.

Re-opening lines of communication is never easy, especially when they've been damaged. Sometimes it takes a third party to help with that. If you think that the two of you can't do it on your own, please go see a counselor. If she won't go see one with you go by yourself. It will show her that you are trying to make it things work, not to mention it will help you deal with these issues in ways that an ex-mormon bulletin board can't.

PLEASE, I'm all but begging you, do not even suggest going to a church therapist. I say this for several reasons. One, she will see it as you and the therapist ganging up on her because the therapist will suggest doctrinal based solutions, which she may not want to hear at the moment. Also, a non-church therapist will be an objective 3rd party, that will look past religion and work on your marriage, which is what you want to save. Finally, and while you may be OK with this since you still believe in the church, I can almost guarantee you that she would not like finding out that the therapist is reporting your discussions back to your bishop. It would just be another wedge that would have to be worked out.

You can make it work, if you want to. You WILL have to change yourself. I'm not saying that you have to leave the church, but if the most important person in your life changes, you have to change in response to that, there is no getting around it. You have a choice though, you can change in ways to try to save your marriage, or you can buckle down and give her no choice but to leave.

I make no promises, every marriage is different, your's may not survive this, but there's also the chance that it can. It's up to you and your wife to make it work.

Finally Free has many very, very good points, one of the most important, to my mind, is respect. It is essential.

A fact of life is, people change. No one stays the same as they are when they get married. You do not get to choose the ways your spouse changes.

So, you can either decide to love each other and be supportive of each others' changes, or you can not. That's pretty much it.

I personally am still married because we both decided to work with the changes and support each other and be patient and open-minded through the changes. I have three siblings who are no longer married because either they or their spouses couldn't handle the change.

Everyone grows and changes. Either you allow each other to do so and find a way to make it work, or you don't.

"She has been attending church and doing everything she is supposed to, but it is reaching a breaking point for her so i am trying to figure out how not to screw this up again."

8 years and she STILL GOES TO CHURCH? I've seen many posts from people who still attend church for their spouse, and it's killing them inside to sit there and listen to stuff they strongly disagree with, and feel like they can't say anything but just have to play along. That in itself could be pushing her to the breaking point.

First of all, if she stopped believing 8 years ago, and is still attending church, and you think she is 'supposed to' do that, there's a huge part of the problem. 'Supposed to' assumes that the church is true. No offense, but it's not. But I'll play along for a moment and pretend that the church is true. Church attendance would STILL be at her discretion. Her church attendance should depend on what SHE believes, not what YOU believe. SHE should decide what she is morally obligated to do, based on HER convictions. How about assuming that if there is a God, and if she's a good and honest person, she'll eventually find her way back and that you'll love her unconditionally either way?

What makes someone a good person, or a good partner, is the kind of PERSON they are, not what they claim to believe.

#1 suggestion: If your wife doesn't want to be there, encourage her to stay home and enjoy her Sunday. And then don't resent her for it.


#2 I suggest that you validate her right to leave the church completely. In other words, encourage her to resign from the church. The reason for that being that you could send her a strong message that you ACCEPT her non-belief, that you will love her as she is, regardless of her church affiliation. I have seen many stories of people who are much happier after they let it go completely.

#3 Stop worrying about the next life and live this one.

The truth is, in the Mormon church, that nobody knows if they will make it to the celestial kingdom and earn the right to be with their spouse forever, anyway. Dare I ask what kind of God would WANT to separate two people who love each other for eternity, or why THEY shouldn't be in charge of deciding who they want to be with?

Re: Supposed to-

I ment it as a shorthand way of explaining where she is at. Not in a doctrinal way.

I am not interested in encouraging her to leave. That gets into one of the big issues I have with the mixed marriage set up. We will both always want the other to change to "our way". How could you not? I get there will come a time to agree to disagree and respect each other. But that tension will always be in the background if I believe this is the Gospel and she thinks its b.s.

'Supposed to' is a loaded word. In my mind, it conveys duty, guilt, obligation, and things like that. Even if you didn't intend it that way, for some reason that was the word you chose.

"Breaking point" is perhaps the more ominous phrase. Why is it coming to that? It implies pressure and resistance.

You said "I am not interested in encouraging her to leave." I don't think she needs encouragement, really. I think she's looking for acceptance or she would have left already.

I guess the main thing I would say is that you can't change what other people believe. She believes what makes sense to her, and you believe what makes sense to you. It sounds like you've both reached your conclusions after much thought. You've talked to each other and disagree on the conclusions. At some point you either have to accept each other as you are or you will make each other miserable.

Why wait to "agree to disagree and respect each other"? It's ALWAYS a good time to respect each other.

A few people mentioned the marital research of Dr. Gottman, and I just want to post a link and excerpt here:

http://www.gottman.com/49853/Research-FAQs.html

"9. What are the negative behavior patterns that can predict divorce?
Dr. Gottman calls these destructive behaviors, “A Positive-to-Negative Ratio of 0.8 or Less,” and has named the most corrosive negative behavior patterns, “The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse.” Specifically, these are:

Criticism: stating one’s complaints as a defect in one’s partner’s personality, i.e., giving the partner negative trait attributions. Example: “You always talk about yourself. You are so selfish.”

Contempt: statements that come from a relative position of superiority. Contempt is the greatest predictor of divorce and must be eliminated. Example: “You’re an idiot.”

Defensiveness: self-protection in the form of righteous indignation or innocent victim-hood. Defensiveness wards off a perceived attack. Example: “It’s not my fault that we’re always late; it’s your fault.”

Stonewalling: emotional withdrawal from interaction. Example: The listener does not give the speaker the usual nonverbal signals that the listener is “tracking” the speaker."

What do I see described most in part-member marriage stories here on the board? Contempt and emotional withdrawl. And it can be either spouse behaving destructively. Typically, the TBM spouse thinks their apostate spouse is weak, sinful, prideful, lazy or deceived, and the apostate thinks the TBM is gullible or stupid for not seeing through the church. In reality, belief or non-belief is much more complex than that.

"I am not interested in encouraging her to leave. That gets into one of the big issues I have with the mixed marriage set up. We will both always want the other to change to "our way". How could you not? I get there will come a time to agree to disagree and respect each other. But that tension will always be in the background if I believe this is the Gospel and she thinks its b.s."

Everything you said here is wrong, and you need to move past it if you want your marriage to survive. If you can't then you may find yourself divorced. (BTW, I don't necessarily agree that you "should" encourage her to resign, I don't think it's a bad idea, but you could instead, stop discouraging her for following her heart and her beliefs even if it means she leaves the church. That's about respecting her and her wishes. Hopefully she can do the same for you and not discourage you from attending your chosen religion.)

So, just so we're clear, YOU are the one that has a problem with a mixed marriage. Until YOU let go of that, YOU will be a big part of the problem. YOU do not have to want the other person to change to your way. My wife didn't, I didn't want her to change. That's how our marriage survived. We both wanted each of us to be the best versions of ourselves that we could be.

You can not make the person you love change. If you want them to change, then you don't love THEM, you love some idealized version of them, and it's just not going to work.

If your marriage was based on wanting her to change and you still want her to be something else, then you may not be able to save it. You have to love her for WHO SHE IS TODAY, not for what you can change her into.

The time to agree to disagree is almost always NOW. I get that there are things that can not accept and move past. But, if you want to stay married even though she's no longer an active member, or may even choose to resign at some point, then YOU MUST AGREE TO DISAGREE RIGHT NOW or start preparing yourself and her for separation.

"But that tension will always be in the background if I believe this is the Gospel and she thinks its b.s."

Do you guys disagree about anything else? Politics? What the kids should study? What to spend the tax return on? Have those disagreements caused your marriage to fail?

There will always be things that the two of you don't see eye to eye on. Even if you married a clone, I think you'd find that you can even disagree with yourself from time to time.

You can not change how she feels (if you could, she'd be a happy active member today, wouldn't she?) You can only change yourself. You have to decide, for yourself, if a disagreement about church and beliefs is too wide a river to cross to keep your marriage together. You can not decide that for her, but you can decide it for yourself.

As for putting it off until later, why keep a wound open that you think will have a time later for agreement? Keeping that open and continuing to disagree only widens the river and pushes the door to divorce open wider and makes it harder to close.

jtlang -

I haven't heard from you so I'm just going to say more here.

1) I'm impressed. Really.
A) You've been able to walk into "enemy territory" to try to figure out a way to make your marriage work.
B) You are nearly hopeless that there is a solution, yet you still are looking for one.
C) You have been very willing and open about your part in the problems in your marriage. Even on a website where you are nearly guaranteed to be shredded to pieces you have avoided being overtly defensive.
D) You have avoided getting into flame wars despite being goaded to do so.
E) So I see you as having a good heart, and really being sincere.

---

I have some very concrete advice for you. To keep doing the same things you have been doing and expect things to change in insanity.

1) Give up on the idea that it is hopeless because you believe and she doesn't. It's not hopeless. Many, many people make a TBM/non-believer marriage work where one person stops believing after they are married. I have at least 10 friends personally who are successfully doing exactly that.

You are letting this issue define your marriage. It does not have to be this way.

2) This is the most important item on the list:
Start following the 11th article of faith in regards to your wife. It is incredibly clear that you are sending the message that if she doesn't believe you don't want her. It seethes through in your writing - clearly you are sending that message to her. You need a "mighty change of heart" in this area. Accept your wife's beliefs and accept your wife with those beliefs. It appears she has been trying to appease you for years by jumping through your religious hoops. You causing her to do this is wrong.

It's fine that you hope or wish she would join you in your belief - certainly she hopes and wishes you would join her. However, the problem is you are forcing her to join you. I'm not sure you even realize this is what you are doing. But the threat is very clear - believe the way I do or I'm leaving you. Never mind what you said in the past. This is what you are doing now. You need to over-compensate for this. Your attitude on this needs to do a 180. Then your thoughts, words, and actions need to follow.

You need to not only allow her not to practice your religion, but you need to encourage her to follow what she believes and wants in this area.

3) You need to start rebuilding your marriage. There are many approaches to doing this. (You have admitted you have no confidence or knowledge how to do this.) I recommend this book as a great place to start:
http://www.amazon.com/Love-Languages-Secret-That-Lasts/dp/0802473156

Quick summary:
The idea is you have a "love tank" in your marriage and it is running on empty for both you and your spouse (based on what you have described).

It takes energy and work to fill the love tank of your spouse. The love tank, essentially is your spouse feeling loved by you. When the tank is full things work great, when it is empty not so great.

The key in this book is that different things make different people feel loved. So if you can figure out which things make your wife feel loved and put your energy into those things her love tank will quickly begin to fill.

4) You need to at all costs avoid sending the message to your wife that you do not de-value her because you have different beliefs. You need to overcompensate because that is the message you have been sending her for years.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/27/2013 11:07AM by bc.

Wonderful advice! I wish that I had had this type of help years ago when my wife went inactive, I had to figure it out all on my own (well, with my wife of coarse).

I really hope he can move past the blocks he's put up. Mixed belief marriages can work.

P.s. I'm taking a snarky "parting shot" on this. If your "one true church" were really all that it claims - the solution for the worlds problems - shouldn't it have some real, useful, practical solutions for you on how to make your marriage work? Shouldn't it be a help to your marriage and not a wedge?

bc Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> P.s. I'm taking a snarky "parting shot" on this.
> If your "one true church" were really all that it
> claims - the solution for the worlds problems -
> shouldn't it have some real, useful, practical
> solutions for you on how to make your marriage
> work? Shouldn't it be a help to your marriage and
> not a wedge?

Oh, but they do offer a solution! Their solution is that the marriage will work just fine if we apostates would stop sinning and come back to the fold. The blame is ours, yada yada yada.
Um, yeah. No bitterness here, lol