On a recent thread by “sherlock” about Mormon Easter, “snb” addressed comments I made. I didn’t get a chance to respond before the thread closed.
Sherlock mentioned a directive by SLC to include Jesus in ward meetings at Easter time this year. From his remarks to me about my post, I believe that snb misunderstood my comments, or felt criticized by them, which certainly wasn’t my intent, so I wanted to clarify.
Reference Thread:
http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,812584,812584#msg-812584I said: “Two out of three of my Mormon Easters were entirely devoid of any mention of Jesus at all, never mind the cross or the resurrection. The other one occasion was when Easter happened to fall when a Seventy was visiting from across the border. He gave an impassioned talk about Easter and it gave me hope - for the Mormon Church. But the next year, in my ward anyway, it was back to missionary farewells in SM on Easter Sunday. Exactly as Shannon described, not what converts familiar with Protestant and Catholic services expect or need or want.
“Getting a directive from the top to celebrate the resurrection at Easter is all you need to know about where Mormonism is on the scale of Christian belief.
“It is pitiful that they are so completely clueless when it comes to how to practice Christianity. (No offense meant to regular Mormons but the leaders leave a lot to be desired in many regards).”
Response by “snb” (quoting me): "It is pitiful that they are so completely clueless when it comes to how to practice Christianity."
“Really, I didn't know that practicing Christianity was so strict that there was a correct way to do it and an incorrect way to do it. Who decides what is correct and what is incorrect?
“If I recall correctly, Jesus never gave out instructions on what to do during Easter. So, if Jesus didn't give those instructions on how to practice Christianity correctly, who did?
“I can't remember a single time in all of the decades of Mormonism in which I personally wasn't centered on Christ. Was I doing it wrong as well?”
NG to snb:
I was referring to the SLC leaders when I said “they” don’t seem to know how to practice Christianity. I have made it abundantly clear on this board many times that I do not criticize individual members but only the leaders. In fact, other board posters do criticize members, their family, neighbours, bosses, leaders, prophets, due to their own experiences, but as a “convert” (really a “joiner” as I never converted to JS et al) I don’t have the same immersion as BICs, TBM family/friends or issues with the Mormon Church; therefore, no need or experiences or desire to criticize individual members at large.
But I stand by my considered criticisms of Mormon leaders. If they really knew mainstream Christian doctrine, much less lived it, they wouldn’t have to be sending out directives to their membership about how to celebrate Easter. They’ve had 200 years to figure it out and haven’t got it right yet. In my view, that warrants criticism. They claim to be a Christian church, yet in my experience, and that of many others, judging by the responses on the first thread, they do not make their Easter Sunday meetings any different from those of any other day.
Shannon expressed the convert experience perfectly on the first thread when she said that those with Protestant or Catholic backgrounds felt the absence of Easter in their Mormon wards. That is a criticism of the leaders, not the members.
Regarding the “practice” of Christianity, perhaps I didn't make myself clear. To me it’s a way of saying how we as Christians fold the doctrines and “practices” into our lives. Easter is obviously a big part of that. To totally not even mention Easter or the resurrection on EASTER SUNDAY was beyond explanation to me. Like someone said on the previous thread, that opened my eyes too, when on Easter Sunday one year I actually cried at church because I had “missed Easter” due to the pedestrian nature of the talks presented in SM that never even mentioned it, unlike the Protestant churches I had known.
I’m not saying that any one element needs to be present in order for the service to be right (such as the crosses and flowers and sunrise mentioned by Shannon and others) but just that it’s not unreasonable in a so-called Christian church to expect Easter to be MENTIONED on Easter Sunday. As a convert, I wasn’t totally conversant with Mormon doctrine. I didn’t fully know or comprehend their teaching on Gethsemane. It actually somewhat makes more sense to me now as to why they didn’t emphasize the resurrection on Easter Sunday.
To reiterate, when I spoke of the “practice” of Christianity, I meant the acknowledgement and celebration of Easter, not any specific element of an Easter Sunday service; i.e., sunrise, flowers, even crosses – not mandatory - but observing the fact that it was Easter Sunday in the Christian world – yes, mandatory in my book.
I also specifically mentioned in my remarks that I was speaking of the leaders, not the members. I have often stated here that I do not question anybody’s devotion to Christianity or their self-identification as a Christian – that is not up to me. In fact, I have often said that one of the most Christian people I have ever encountered was Mormon. (Of course, many of my Christian friends, at least the EV ones, would say that is not possible, but I just state my own experiences and observations even if I can’t fully explain them).
So, snb, I did not intend to say that you were “doing it wrong” and I do not question that you were “Christ-centered”, as you say. It was a statement about being a convert, who was not conversant with all of Mormon doctrine (through no fault of my own and not for lack of trying) and who had the expectation that as the Mormon Church considers itself Christian we would be celebrating Easter (and Christmas) in a way that was recognizable to Christians from other denominations.
Suffice to say, we didn’t. And I didn’t cry over the lack of an Easter egg or a daffodil but, as a devoted Christian, over the absolute absence of any reference to Jesus or the Resurrection on Easter Sunday, a time when Christians round the world get together to celebrate.
When one of the missionaries caught me in the hallway and said, “Why is Easter so important to you?” that was the moment I started to think that I had made a big mistake in getting baptized into the Mormon Church. Words failed me and I couldn’t even explain it to her. (It also severely bugged me that my EV friends had perhaps been right in their abhorrence for Mormonism and their united appeal to me to stay away from it. I thought I knew better than they did. I felt that I had been led to the Mormon Church by the hand of God, literally. That is why it was such a big freakin’ deal to me, but I digress).
The following comments by various other posters on the first thread reflect my own experiences and feelings while attending Mormon Church ward meetings at Easter time. They make a lot of the points I was trying to convey.
bona dea: “If they actually celebrate Easter,that would be news. It was just another Sunday when I was going.”
bookratt: “The fact that they felt the need to tell people it was okay to focus on or discuss the savior and not Joseph Smith, plus felt the need to tell people who run the church what Easter is for, says it all.
Cult? Who, me?”
[“snb”: I'll need to remember this post the next time I hear someone complaining about how they never hear about Jeebus in the Mormon church.”]
[NG: Not sure which post you mean, snb, bookratt’s? In any case, I wouldn’t say that exmo posters here are “complaining” about the meetings, at least not in any way that’s different from how they “complain” about a multitude of other things they experienced within Mormonism. Why is it different when it comes to explaining a lack they feel regarding the substance and content of certain meetings that are “special” in the Christian world, and to them, but apparently not so much in the Mormon world that’s inhabited by the SLC leaders?]
CA Girl: “Honestly, I've been to a number of Easter services where neither Jesus nor the resurrection were the focus of the talks. Maybe they had one Easter hymn surrounded by the usual talks on tithing, food storage, obedience whatever. So it's a step in the right direction. Unfortunately, it just shows how NOT focused on Jesus the Mormon religion is if they have to be REMINDED to talk about Jesus on Easter. It's like reminding someone to breathe when it should be perfectly obvious that it's necessary.”
[NG: These are the comments to which I responded, “Exactly CA Girl”].
bona dea: “Easter is the center of the Christian faith so expecting Christians to acknowledge it doesn't seem to be too much. I am glad your ward was Christ centered, but mine really were not.”
[snb: “I thought Jesus was the center of the Christian faith. Again, if he didn't come up with the ceremonies that we associate with Easter, then who did?
“Who exactly expects Christians to observe Easter? If it wasn't Jesus, then who is expecting this?
“Obviously my argument is that the expectation to celebrate Easter a certain way comes from people whose opinions are fairly irrelevant. Jesus never prescribed any of this and there is no good reason why we should either.
“I think it is relatively absurd that people will criticize Mormonism for not being Jesus centered and then in the same breath criticize them for not following exactly a purely and obviously man-made tradition that was never even mentioned in their holy texts.
“At least Mormons still celebrate a version of Easter. Many Puritan groups have rejected the tradition entirely. Are they less Christian because of it?”]
[NG: "Mormons still celebrate a version of Easter". This is an assumption that I found prevalent in many Mormons, including leaders, anyone I contacted to inquire about doctrines, practices, policies, etc - the assumption being that their experience is my experience. That is a human thing really, I find, and not exclusive to Mormons actually. My point is that in the ward I attended - and there is no choice about which one you go to - you are assigned geographically and that's it - they did not have any special observances for Easter, a glaring omission for the converts, if not the members].
bona dea: “It is a nearly 2000 year old Christian tradition and pretty much practiced by all Christians. Maybe they don't all do it the same way, but you will not find another church where it is ignored or downplayed in favor of another talk about following the prophet. THe point is that If you want to appear Christian following some Christian traditions help. Besides member complain. I know because I have heard them and seen them in other churches on Easter and Christmas. Whether Jesus mentioned it or whether the resurrection actually happened isn't the point. They believe it did and claim to Christians and then ignore Jesus. I see a problem here. I also see dissatisfaction on part of the members.”
[snb: “… Whether Christ mentioned it or not is relevant in this context. When one person who believes in the deity Christ is looking down on another person who believes in the deity Christ because they don't follow man made traditions I feel like they are in error."
“Assuming for a second that Jesus really was a god, the fact that Jesus didn't prescribe Easter traditions means that a good Christian shouldn't either. Do they feel like they can speak for Jesus, or that their authority is higher than his?
“It is highly illogical for them to take that position. I also find it highly arrogant.”]
bona dea: “And how do you know that the supposedly resurrected Jesus didn't say something about it that wasn't recorded? And what is arrogant about wanting to commemorate an event that is important to you anyway? It is human nature. JFK didn't ask me to remember him every Nov 22 ,but I do. You are certainly entitled to not let it bother you, but I really don't see any arrogance here at all. Mormons are also entitled to ignore Easter if they want, but my point is that they are shooting themselves in the foot by doing so and like the rest of the posters, I see some irony here. In other words, I think you are missing the point. Most of us don't go to the Mormon church any more and don't really care what they do on Easter. We are commenting on the irony and on our feelings about the lack of Easter when we were members. Maybe it wasn't an issue for you, but it was one of my WTF moments. Apparently a lot of posters felt the same way judging from the responses.”
NormaRae: “ONLY IN MORMONISM...do you need a "prophet" to tell you to celebrate Easter on Easter.”
NG:
Exactly, NormaRae. That is the point most of us were making.
I don’t think it is “absurd” or “arrogant” to say these things, any more than any other criticism levelled here by ex-members is absurd or arrogant.
I don’t see where anyone said you MUST have flowers and crosses and beaches and breakfasts. Those are just examples of how Easter is a special day in Christian churches. It’s a way that has evolved to celebrate the entire essence of the faith: the Resurrection. It goes without saying that the Sunday meeting is all about Easter - no directives from central leaders necessary thankyouverymuch.
If you’re Christian you generally participate/observe this special day in your faith.
That’s all anybody is saying here, me included. If individual Mormons hold it up as a special day, and celebrate it in their own way, and/or have this celebration in their ward meetings on Easter Sunday, that’s great. It’s just that many of us didn’t and don’t and if this wasn’t an issue there would have been no need for the announcement from SLC, which is where this all started.
My comments were meant to express my own experiences as a convert for three years, and (the lack of) Easter was a big part of me deciding to leave. I didn't intend to come across as criticizing Mormons (their leaders though, yeah, I'm critical) and certainly didn't intend to be "absurd", "arrogant" or critical of people "who believe in the deity of Christ".
I hope this clears that up.
And to be clear about something else important, I do like Easter eggs. They don't have to be at church though. :)
And, indeed, in the more fundamentalist groups of my experience, they would be viewed with horror - especially in church - as being "pagan" etc.
To me, they're just chocolate. Mmmmmmmmm.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/10/2013 08:17PM by Nightingale.