I find it incredible that someone who works for FAIR and did some work for FARMS is writing an article in the April 2013 Ensign. The title is "The Restoration and Early Christian Teachings". The article does not mention his association with the apologetic organizations. To me being an Apologist for the Church is like being a lawyer. Both meet their objective by any means necessary.

There are two statements in the article that bug me, among others. The first is"Scholars now recognize that baptism for the dead was an authentic ancient Christian practice." and the second is "Scholarly studies have buttressed the claim that the Prophet restored doctrines of the gospel of Jesus Christ as taught in the meridian of time."

Michael references the BOA, really? He also references the Apocrypha and the works of Clement of Alexandria and Hippolytus, bishop of Portus. Who are these guys and Michael can quote them in support of JS but I am not suppose to read the NIV version of the Bible.

I read another article by Ash this morning. In that article he called everything except love The Lord and life your neighbor "non-doctrinal issue". Then went on to criticize those who question the historicity of certain events of having black and white thinking and being closed minded.
It'sore than a little hypocritical that he's now using sources he deemed out of bounds.
But such is the nature of confirmation bias. If it supports your point it's okay to quote obscure archeology or whatever. But when it doesn't support your point is okay to dismiss the entire BoA.

Ashat stretches things. He's the one that originally proposed that the chariots in the BoM were really sleds pulled by Tapirs. That's how cog-dissed Ashat is.

"Scholarly studies have buttressed the claim that the Prophet restored doctrines of the gospel of Jesus Christ as taught in the meridian of time."

Hey ASH! You just did what you bitch about when so called anti-mormons call your apologetics poo!

Sweeping and unjustified statements of certainty with no references!

WHAT “SCHOLARS?” Who are these people, ASH? (I think it may be that Ash and his buddies are calling each other scholars in areas that they have no certified training.)

What scholarly studies? How has it buttressed? The word “buttress” implies a solid structure, a wall, made of something hard, as in rock solid support of something else. Is said ‘studies’ indicative of a wall or a toothpick?
And just what the hell is the “meridian of time” and in what context does it mean squat?

Ash’s appeal to authority fallacy by implying all scholars agree with his assertions and his Texas sharpshooter fallicies he uses in his published nonsense certainly seems to work great on the unread flock, but it really pisses me off. The ignorant point each other to Ash as an authority. Ash to the flock is more spiritual and scholarly than the flock will ever be so why try to find answers elsewhere. The experts like Ash have already done the work for you doubters.

Good fricking grief! I swear. Critical thinking is so lacking inside the bubble and I thank the gods that I found and learned a little something about critical thinking so that guys like Ash can be recognized and dismissed do to the now obvious douchbaggery.

Down here in Texas we call those ubiquitous shade trees, known as Arizona ash, Arizona trash. Perhaps it's too facile, but may I call Michael Ash, Utah trash?

Ummm, Mr. Ash? I have a question!

Yes, my dear JoD?

Uh, how come the first century church looked nothing at all like what Joseph Smith Restored?

Mr Ash, can I ask one more?

Okay, now what?

Um, how come the Book of Mormon taught the same things many of the other churches in 1830 were teaching, and yet is a restoration of lost Christianity?

Mr. Ash, since worship of false idols is prevelant throughout the scriptures, why are mormons encouraged to be "Saviours on Mount Zion" through Baptism for the Dead? Is the original Savior insufficient for those who died without Law, and if so, why is He worshipped?

What is the Meridian of time? I've never heard any other religion use that phrase. Have mormons decided it's a certain time that only they know about or are privy to?

Mormons have used that as a term of art for decades.

It is a Christian term but it's not used very often any more.

Hmmmm I wonder if Ash would be comfortable having this article peer reviewed by world-renowned scholars who really are experts in the development of early Christianity?

In the first couple of centuries of Christianity there were all
kinds of Christian sects popping up with all kinds of beliefs.
That SOME of the beliefs of these sects have similarities to
SOME of the teachings of Mormonism is not evidence that anything
was restored by Joseph Smith, but just evidence that all kinds
of stuff was taught bye one christian sect or another.

The very thing the Church hates--being lumped with the
schizmatic, polygamist offshoots--is what Ash is doing. He's
pointing to SOME practices of SOME sects and saying, "see this
was early Christianity." But let someone point to Warren Jeffs
and say, "see, this is Mormonism," and they cry foul.

There's two things I hate about the Church: it's face.

Ash should not be writing for the Ensign in my opinion without disclosing his credentials, if you can call them that. Someone in the hierarchy is stretching very hard on this one.

The game is on --- there is a new effort toward transparency in the TSCC and I believe the TSCC is now starting to use what ever means necessary to counter the affects of the Internet by publishing articles like this one and the one a few months back (Jan-2013) by LDS historian Gerrit Dirkmaat, “Great and Marvelous are the Revelations of God,”. They tell the saintly side thinking this will innoculate their members. I am afraid they will claim some false victories.

I once had an email correspondence with "My Cash," and he refused to accept the definition for "doctrine" from the American Heritage Dictionary. I told him what I was taught in Primary, and he said I had bad teachers.

Debating with that knucklehead is like punching the tar baby. He's oblivious and spongy.

At what point did Mormon prophets defer declaration of doctrine to apologists like ash? We thank their of God for a prophet.

Didn't Michael Ash post on here about 3-4 years ago?

I think he has a relative that posted on here and wanted to clear up a couple things.

Not meaning to hijack this thread, but just wanted to know if my memory was correct.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/25/2013 07:29PM by Riverman.

I think you're right, because that was about the time I had email communication with him. I must have first seen him here.

Only in Mormonism would a prophet go into battle on a sled pulled by a 700 pound pig (tapir).

popeyes Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Only in Mormonism would a prophet go into battle
> on a sled pulled by a 700 pound pig (tapir).


And a big fat old elf (prophet) go to battle with Satan in a sled being pulled in the sky by overfed herbivores (12 apostles.)

"Mormon scholars", uhm okay right you guys are the ones who have your "research" published on YouTube instead of in academic journals.

In other words, you make shi# up and true academics ignore and/or laugh at you. Like the rest of us.