One sacrament meeting when I was around 12 (so around 19 years ago)- I remember our bishop reading a letter from the CEO of the church.

It was about changing our verbiage when bearing testimony. About changing it from "know" to "Believe".

Does anyone else remember this change?

I always felt it was significant, even at the time, when I truly believe, it cause a serious rift for some people.

Perhaps they were tired of dealing with the scientific rebuttals?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/02/2013 02:42PM by intjsegry.

I used to think that made sense, very few people would truly "know" the church was true or that Christ lived

Think of the Brother of Jared, he passed from faith to knowledge and as a result the Lord could not hide from him.

Think of the real criteria for outer darkness. It was to have knowledge and to turn away, not to have faith.

so yes, while saying know was cliche, it was an inaccurate term.

Even as a young, brain-washed child, I remember thinking KNOW was an odd word choice... as one cannot truly know, even if they saw someone who claimed to be Jesus, standing by Joseph, handing him the plates... because, as the story has always gone, somehow, any real evidence besides hear-say and "eye witness" would somehow be "withdrawn from the eyes of men."

i absolutely remember it. but i left the cult 25 years ago. must have happened more than once.

It sounds silly to stand up in front of people and tell them what you know.

"I know the earth is a sphere"

"I know Barack Obama is the president of the United States"

"I know water is wet"

But somehow it doesn't sound silly when you make a supernatural claim: "I know the church is true."

That, in and of itself, should be very telling...

"I do not know that we know." GBH

They actually tried to change from KNOW to BELIEVE??!! I would expect the exact opposite.

Weird... I was always taught that I know it's true, not I believe it's true! They were very specific about that.

If I thought faith and belief was good enough, I probably would still be in the church today. The pressure to KNOW the church was true and to bear testimony of it ultimately led to my doubts.

Actually, I was told on my mission to not use either but to simply state the "knowledge" or "belief" as fact. For example, don't bear your testimony that you "know the church is true" or "I believe the church is true" but to simply say "The church is true." Apparently, it made us sound more confident and less debatable. It was a better sales technique, in other words.

This is the best moisturizer money can buy.

You simply can't live without this blender.

You won't find a toastier toaster in your price range.

Yeah, I see your point..

It was that kind of "confidence" in the missionaries that made me doubt my doubts. They would tell me "the church is true" as a fact and the there was a prophet. These elders even suggested that anyone could see JC in the temple. That's was got me curious enough to go and try it for myself. Of course, by the time I was "allowed" to enter the temple I was already too involved in the church to see it for what it was.

Intesjry, someone must have gone off script.

https://www.lds.org/liahona/2008/10/testimony-glove?lang=eng

The testimony glove uses "KNOW".

http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=bbd508f54922d010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&sourceId=d2157c2fc20b8010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____

They are still saying "KNOWLEDGE" on their website defining what a testimony is.

Testimonies are a creed you internalize so you can't believe anything that contradicts the creed.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/02/2013 03:37PM by crom.

I tried to find the letter from the FP about this on the church news site, but was unsuccessful. How many years ago would this have been?

Over 10-15 years. Maybe just my ward decided to be rogue about it... not sure why. I just specifically remember that sacrament meeting.

I don't believe I ever did use the word know unless it was something that can be known. And, I've been counselled to use that word instead of believe. It just seemed dishonest to use the word Know while reciting your endorsement of the church.

Will have to change a few songs - "I know the scriptures are true" etc.

At his missionary farewell, my TBM brother gave a talk about knowing vs believing. He emphasized that we are trained to say we "know" at church, but that we don't. I don't remember all of the talk, but I know at one point he said he thought it showed greater strength to say we "believe" instead - that by doing so we are relying on faith.

It was a great talk, which he wrote himself and delivered very well. He got a ton of compliments on it from ward members after the meeting. When he finished, the Dry Council member (actually, it might have been a member of the stake presidency?) who was assigned to speak after him stood at the pulpit and thanked him for it. He commended the message, and commented on how true it was and how wise my brother was. He, of course, ended his talk with his testimony, and you can bet your ass he said, "I KNOW this church is true."

I don't think that word, in that context, actually has any meaning to TBMs. It's just a status symbol and a social requisite, to stand up there and say "I know."

It is so prevalent because it has become so engrained in the momo culture. It's every bit as part of the vernacular as "oh, my heck", and "he's so ignert".

How many FT meetings have you attended where a procession of the little ones babbled into the mic "I know this church is true" while parents beamed, nearly bursting with pride.
Come to think of it, that is one of the reasons I came to hate FT meetings so much.

But here's an anecdote for the books....and true. Happened in a ward in my old stake in Idaho.

Little one giving a testimony. Parents sitting in the congregation beamed with pride as the little one proceeded to recount a touching story to prove the power of prayer. Well, the little guy was telling the story about how he'd misplaced a pair of snow glasses and had prayed for their speedy return. He said, while the congregation waited with baited breath, that he finished his prayer, stood up, and looking down under the bed exclaimed "and there the son of a bitch was!".

Hey, if Im lying, Im dying!

dx

You should send it to the Ensign ... or the Friend. ; )

Well that is one announcement that no one listened to...

If you want an interesting exercise, check out the testimony of the general conference speakers where just about all bear testimony at the end of their talk - see November 2012 Ensign or if you hear any sessions this weekend. 95% of them bear witness to the Savior and the atonement, and no "Know the church is true" testimonies. Then compare this with a typical ward testimony meeting where nearly everyone says they "know the church is true."