I owe you all a big apology. No Im not a lot of the things you said but yes......you had a right to think so.

Im insanely devoted to rules of right/wrong and I at times draw my sword too quickly.

I had no right to curse you for your thoughts.

I had no right to suppose things about you I didn't know.

I DID close my mind to your ideas....that was stupid.

I DID know I was likely to illicit strenuous argument. I did get attacked right from the start but again....I asked for it.

I sincerely apologize.

Growth moment for me? I suppose so.

Again, I apologize. It was selfish, tunnel-visioned, and stupid.

dx

Something you need to understand is you will always be disagreed with, whether it's here on Rfm or IRL. That's a fact of life. If you respond immediately to disagreement with ad hominems, you need to take a long look at yourself. Calling people a d-bag out of the gate is a reflection on YOU, not the person you are insulting.

Itzpapalotl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Something you need to understand is you will
> always be disagreed with, whether it's here on Rfm
> or IRL. That's a fact of life. If you respond
> immediately to disagreement with ad hominems, you
> need to take a long look at yourself. Calling
> people a d-bag out of the gate is a reflection on
> YOU, not the person you are insulting."

Dude, did U read his post?
you are responding like he didn't apologise.
You don't make people squirm & eat shit, especially when he is humbly apologised.

If not, then step off. I didn't insult him nor was I harsh. I spoke in plain clear language about the way he responded to other posters by INSULTING them. Apologizing doesn't mean shit unless a person resolves to respond better in the future.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/06/2013 12:19PM by Itzpapalotl.

I didn't accept his apology because, in his so called apology, he made an accusation that he was attacked from the very start.

This accusation means that people like me (I was the first to respond) attacked him. That is a flat out false accusation, I did not attack him in any way.

I do not accept apologizes that falsely accuse me of doing wrongs I certainly did not do.

wow..now that's integrity.

dx Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I DID know I was likely to illicit strenuous
> argument. I did get attacked right from the start
> but again....I asked for it.
>

No, you did not get attacked right from the start. In all the response before your first attack post I counted maybe two comments that could even remotely considered an attack on YOU. Ultimately, nobody attacked you with the intensity with what you attacked us, ever.

Im not the first to use d-bag but no matter.

I started it.

thanks for the comments.....

so you were not attacked from the very start. To claim that you were attacked from the very start is to falsely claim that I attacked you. Stuff like that makes it hard for me to take you apology seriously.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/06/2013 12:40AM by MJ.

Fair enough

Now I would like to point out that for many of us we were told that we lacked character and integrity for leaving our faith when it most often is the opposite. For many of us we could no longer remain members of the Mormon church without compromising the very thing that your post seemed to insinuate that we didn't have. Integrity was was at least for me the number one reason I left.

I suspect that you probably feel the same way, that you could no longer maintain your character and be Mormon at the same time and you left Mormonism. I also suspect that you are very confused. If you can find it in your heart to accept some advice, stick around. Nothing helps a confused ex-Mormon more than exploring things like you posted. RFM is very adept at helping clarify logical inconsistencies because most of us have thought or said the same things as you at one point.

Thanks Jacob. I think you've articulated well why the responses were so swift and intense. I can see you are right. I accused a lot of folks for the very thing that it took buckets of and fortitude to finally do.

I won't lie, I've gone through the 12 steps too.....dismay, disbelief, hurt, betrayal.....on and on.......

I've been told Im a black and white guy trying to live in a world filled with shades of grey. No doubt about that.

Guess all I needed was a boot to the head. ha

I could have easily left and I intended to....no one really knows me. but.....I would have known and the fact is, I was wrong and I really can use the type of understanding and thought that is here.....

Bouna Fortuna!

I understand your discomfort, and used to feel that I was obligated to keep quiet about temple stuff. I still don't like to quote it or anything, but people should be aware what goes on.

Now I see talking about the temple as sounding the alarm on abuse. People are being controlled by making "solemn covenants". They are required to make these covenants to be allowed to go on missions, or get married. They generally are not told beforehand what covenants they will make. And they are told that if they don't live up to every one of them that they will be in Satan's power. That's abuse. It's control by fear. People who have been through the temple feel obligated to do anything and everything they are "called" to do in the church, because of their temple covenants.

But if people knew when they investigate the church, what would ultimately be expected of them, most would run for the hills. And if most members knew that they would be learning secret handshakes and passwords to get into heaven, they'd think the temple sounded rather silly.

The handshakes and passwords are the silly part of the temple. But the promise of consecration is serious and cultlike.

I think your reaction to the temple discussion was natural for someone who has recently left the church. We were conditioned to be very protective of the temple and to fear and respect every aspect of it, at a visceral level. That doesn't just go away by itself.

Its great you can put up a fight, but I have been watching these pages for years now, and only comment from time to time, mostly to crack a bad joke.

Rfm is not for the faint of heart, it is not for the trolls, and anyone in between will get eaten alive. However, this place IS full of heart, many very big hearts making up one giant collective heart of people who are full of love for each other at the core, and ready to fight with any mother f*cker who doesn't bring honest respect for others experiencing this very unique plight to the table. You will take a lickin here until you understand fully all the ways TSCC brought the collective to its knees and the many many ways its affected those who leave, to include nasty PTSD, broken families, loss of identity, loss of tribe, and yes even suicide. There's infinite ways to express contempt for TSCC and infinte ways to get your ass chewed out on RfM...
Enjoy!

People here are also smart as hell and they will hang on and pay attention to your every word.

That was beautiful, Yaqoob. I think you should comment more often.

Agreed. Nice, Yaqoob.

To the OP: If you can live with all that, and open your mind a bit . . . you just might make a great member of our community. I'm all for second chances. Welcome!

;o)

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,850358,850788#msg-850788

Yep, lots of passion here. But also lots of brains.

Trolls come thinking we're easy pickings, but after a few nips to the rump, usually scurry away with their "tail atwixt their legs".

The biggest misconception that I perceive in first-timers here is the assumption that most posters here have only dabbled in mormonism and christianity, and don't understand the minutiae and particulars associated with each. To the contrary, most posters here are very well versed in both, and are easily more knowledgeable than an average lay-mormon or an average lay-christian.

Personally, as a rural-Utah BIC boy, with my first temple session attended in 1981, I don't really feel like I had the choice to attend the temple or not attend the temple. I felt I had no choice. I just did as I was told.

Maybe that's an excuse, whatever.

Be that as it may, since I feel like I really had no choice to attend the temple, and in the temple I was taught how to spill my guts and slit my throat and allow an old man to place a dab of olive oil close to my wiener, and since I was told that everything I owned or may own belonged to the church; well let's just say the church has lied to me my whole life, and has never kept their end of any bargain they've ever made with me, therefore, they don't get any deference on my part. None.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/06/2013 03:11PM by schlock.

DX,

There is therapy for you sir.

It was really hard for me to first post my temple name (Caleb..totally lame)

And then it was hard for me to write my exit story...

And then it was hard for me to tell my Mom that I renounced my mormonism...

And then it was hard for me to tell my kids why we arent mormon anymore...

And now, I LOVE telling everyone I know about funny undies, secret handshakes, secret wink-wink nod-nod bull shit beliefs that members have with each other...

And, I have no problem saying that the high counselor's wife in my stake here sent me naked pix of her stuff up close and that he sent her to bishops court and had her confess her lesbian tendencies to a tribunal of men because he read what she wrote to me...

And its because its authentic...

Just let loose man, say the stuff that makes you feel like a bold of lightening is on its way...then drink a shot of tequila

I drank a shot of tequila and chased it with a dark beer - at work, in a USG office building (so much for sequestration)

:-)

Chill buddy

Holy shit! YOu should post those pics on the ward bulletin board!

That would shake the stake center bricks!

Well, cant handle tequila but I did have a few glasses of red Sirah!

Why the hell would anyone embarass another human being by posting those pictures in a public place?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/06/2013 01:11PM by mysid.

Keeping that promise makes me complicit in duping the next guy.

No one told me I would have to promise to sacrifice my LIFE and everything I own to the church, before hand.

Imagine, we're getting sealed as a family. I have my spouse and child waiting for me. My bishop, several ward members and a few relatives are going to go with us through our first session, and see us sealed. My mother has ordered a catered meal for this group at a hotel afterwards.

It was a SURPRISE! They gave me the option to withdraw from the ceremony if I'm unwilling to promise, WITHOUT telling me what the promise will be. How can I know, if even NOW in the temple they won't tell me before hand?

Really, I was going to at that moment say,"Oh, I might need a few days to think this over." They still hadn't given me enough information so I knew what I was supposed to think over.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/06/2013 01:25AM by crom.

hmmmm

You do make a point pretty hard to shoot down. The peer pressure IS awfully intense. Leaving at that point would be pretty abrupt.

Guess I was just so utterly dismayed that I couldn't have made a rational decision if I wanted to when I went through for the first time. Never really realized that before.

I was 17 plus about 20 days in age.
I was getting married to a RM
We had about 70 people with us in the temple.
I had no transportation of my own, and was about 800 miles from home.
I had approximately 300 people waiting for a catered party that evening.
The party was 300 of my inlaws best friends. They were the top dogs in their town. The social mormon elite.
I had no idea I was going to have to let someone gut me, and slit my throat if I ever talked about the worst day of my life at that point.

If I'd been close to home I would have ran like the wind. I would have gotten the hell out of there and never looked back.

It was one of the few times in my life I could actually hear an audible invisible voice. It said "RUN!" I couldn't do it. I was terrified. At that age, in those circumstances I didn't have the courage. There wasn't a single person that would have supported me. I'd been raised to obey everyone around me. Thinking for myself was not acceptable.

To not talk about it now would prevent me from working all of the way through a religion that has been abusing me for 60 years. Before that, they abused 4 other generations of my family. They're still at it with the majority of my family of origin.

Everyone who is going through the temple for the first time deserves to know exactly what they're walking into. If we don't talk about it, who will?

Apology accepted.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/06/2013 01:51AM by mia.

Welcome to the board, Dx. People are going to disagree with you here, sometimes vehemently so, but generally it is accomplished in a civil manner.

Learning to disagree is a great skill for those who have left a highly controlling religion. Agreeing or disagreeing with other people is an acknowlegement that reasonable people can have different points of view and different opinions about things. It's the total opposite of, "bow your head and say yes." For years, the Mormon church told you how it was going to be. Now you get to say in return, I don't THINK so.

I think it's likely that Dx is actually scared out of his mind what might happen to him if he repeats what he heard in the Temple. So rather than denouncing what he doesn't agree with and which is repugnant on several levels, he comes up with a good sounding excuse for not having to go there. What better excuse when you're used to thinking like a mormon, than to do something out of principal, and doing the right thing. You need some healing Dx. Sooner or later you're going to have to face this and reject it publicly. Not that you need to do this for anyone else so much, it's just for yourself. But your soul needs to know on all levels that you've been wronged and that you're not going to put up with it by rolling over and keeping it a secret.

DX posted last night that people shouldn't reveal what happens in the temple because they promised not to. Commenters disagreed and explained why they disagreed. DX got a bit testy, to put it mildly.

Wonder if it's also bad to reveal what happens in a kiddie marble club. Those little guys are serious about their crockeyes and steelies.

I'm pretty sure I made that promise to God. Specifically, the version of the God of Abraham that Mormons believe in. I didn't covenant with a temple worker. I didn't covenant with the corporation that calls itself TCOJCOLDS. I covenanted with God.

Well, it turns out that God doesn't exist. And if that's too much of a stretch, I think we can at least agree that the "Heavenly Father" that Mormons believe in doesn't exist. And that's who I made the promise to.

Since the person I made the promise to doesn't even exist, the only conclusion I can come to is that there IS no promise. I mean really, if the non-existence of one of the parties in a contract doesn't make said contract null and void, then what the hell does?

No one "attacked you from the start"; several people disagreed with you in a thoughtful manner. Please work on learning the difference for your own sake and the sake of everyone you interact with.

Apology accepted. Welcome to RfM.

Hi Dx, I'm glad you are willing to take another look at what you said in your original thread. I never went to the temple, but I was getting to the age where people expected me to, despite not being married. Reading about the temple experience was one of the many things that helped me realize what the church really is. I'm sure I'm not the only one! Revealing of the secrets (sacreds?) by people who were coerced into promising silence helps a lot of people move away from this destructive organization.

Apology accepted. And yes, do investigate issues concering right and wrong and those in power who try to decide right and wrong for you. It helps immensely to learn that you actually have the RIGHT to determine those things for yourself when you become an adult. Do not let the actions of a child (following parents directions blindly-we all did) carry on once you are an adult.