Also I didn't know that JS translated the Book of Mormon by putten his head into a hat.

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/26/2013 10:08PM by subeam.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/26/2013 10:09PM by subeam.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/26/2013 10:26PM by philipafarewell.

I am not worshiping. Every day I find things that don't add up about the church it is all made up. I am struggling with that realization. Why didn't I see that sooner? The scriptures are full of promises that didn't happen hence D&C 84. Why did I never notice it during seminary or institute? The conference talk I watched and was shocked what he actually said it was all fear based. I used to think it is about love but it is about $$$ and obedience.

From the things you were saying I was under the wrong impression. This is a really horrible time realizing that all the time, energy and faith I put into this B.S. was for nothing. All the religious things I held dear have become ugly and tainted. I, and many others are very vulnerable right now and that is why I got upset.

I am sorry I will change it.

I just came into the conversation late so no need for an apology or changing this.

Yeah she is just sharing the bs she is getting from Mormons.

I can't believe that people can honestly excuse this garbage! How can anyone with a brain honestly believe getting inspiration through a hat? It's asinine.

And the church publishes church material that states totally different things. Oh well I need to live and learn. All those years I read the Book of Mormon when I should have read Marco Polo. Heck I had good feelings over Marco Polo lol .

Hey sunbeam you didn't need to delete all of that. It's my own fault for coming into the convo late and now all my feist has me jumping down throats and guns blazing.

"Having done a lot of translation, every time I read the Book of Mormon it is very easy for me to see that it was not written in English. The text is stilted and too formal (although the grammar is often very poor). No kid (Joseph was 24 when he translated the plates) in rural New England could have written that book. No educated man, from wherever he hailed, could have written that book. I know where it came from."

You're kidding, right?? The "stilted" language is so clearly an attempt to sound scriptural, an imitation of perceived bible prose, but an amateurish attempt. Don't take us for fools.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/26/2013 10:26PM by philipafarewell.

There is no "MAY" - there are many witnesses and statements that it is what he used.

The most important part of the hat thing:

The rock he used and put in the hat is the VERY SAME rock he received a court fine a couple years previously for using fraudulently to search for treasure. He would sham people into paying him to use his seer stone to hunt for treasure. Then right when they were digging for it - he would announce that it moved and slipped away (just as described 2 or 3 places in the Book of Mormon).

Eventually people got fed up with it and took him to court. He apologized and paid a fine and they let him go - but the official court documents still exist.

No matter how clever people are at coming up with explanations they are just putting lipstick on a pig.

I'll try to respond to this and hope the thread hasn't been deleted by a rabid Mormon hater.

Consider the Book of Abraham. Modern scholars have discovered that nothing in it matches the scrolls it was supposedly translated from. If the scrolls were unnecessary for producing the narrative, maybe the gold plates were also unnecessary.

I'm not saying the BOM isn't a marvelous work and a wonder, because it does contain cosmic truths, but this has to be reconciled with the lack of forensic evidence and various errors and anachronisms.

The best explanation I can come up with is that the BOM and PGP are channeled works, narrated with Joseph in a trance state. The technique involved a hat at least part of the time. He may have been able to enter a trance naturally (note that his fight with Emma left him unable to relax his mind to get back into the trance) or he may have used psychactive plants.

The psychoactive plant theory is compelling (google datura and JS) and would explain the need for a golden plate cover story. What would have happened if Joseph had admitted to writing the BOM under the influence of powerful hallucinogens? Well, there probably wouldn't be a TSCC.

Or there is the MUCH more likely theory is that Joseph Smith made the whole story up and with help invented the Book of Mormon.

Here's what I would love to hear from you. What great, amazing truths do you find in the Book of Mormon? I've read it over 50 times and frankly it kinda comes up short now that I look back.

There's Nephi's psalm trusting the Lord, but not unique. There's Benjamin's speech saying to help the poor. There's the stuff on faith in Alma 32 & Ether 12 & Moroni 7 but none of those really impress me much. There's 2 Nephi 9 but that actually conflicts directly with the plan of salvation. There's the Alma 5 guilt trip but it doesn't really have much.

So pray tell what is this amazing truth you find in the Book of Mormon?

The BoA is the perfect example though. It along with D&C 104,the JST, and the Kinderhook Plates establishes a mode of operation of Joseph Smith falsely claiming the ability to obtain and translate ancient writing. The Book of Mormon is just one of a chain of writings where JS falsely claims to be translating ancient writings.

The best explanation for the frankly, common 18th century Protestant Christian concepts in the Book of Mormon - especially close to the Cambelites particularly Sidney Rigdon's version is that Rigdon was at minimum a contributor to the theological aspects of the BoM.

But even Joseph Smith found the theology of the BoM shallow and flat - that's why we spend the next 14 years inventing other religious concepts that often directly contradict the BoM.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/27/2013 01:44AM by The Oncoming Storm - bc.

Allow me to now "translate" what Bradley wrote:

2 + 2 = 5

playing the persecution card.

Sorry, can't tell you. It will be deleted.

If you don't want to get deleted starting your post with "rabid Mormon hater" isn't the best way to avoid it.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/27/2013 01:52AM by The Oncoming Storm - bc.

For fear of getting your post deleted you are not going to write it. It seems to me that you might as well take that chance. If it gets deleted it's really no different than if you had never wrote it.

I'm speculating that the fear might actually be that it doesn't get deleted and then a bunch a people respond and what if some of those response actually make sense and then...holy sh** you agree with an apostate!

So, maybe I posted a reply too quickly. The preceding two replies from Bradley sound very much like a troll with the "rabid Mormon hater" thing. Then after reading further and on other discussions where Bradley has commented, I'm not so sure about the troll thing anymore. So, just wanted to the "sorry if I misunderstood". I'm still new enough that I don't know all the regulars.

that I really like your subject line, "hat." It's been making me smile all evening. :)

An analogy to Joseph would be a snake oil salesman. Like Paul McCartney and Michael Jackson in the Say Say Say video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLEhh_XpJ-0

Mentally replace Paul with Joseph and it's hilarious.

I said it before and I'll say it again. I stand in awe of any guy who can get laid as much as Joseph.

What? You mean that's not how everyone learns a new language? :-)

Here is what I thought happened
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://josephsmith.net/Static%2520Images/kilbourn-translation-plates_MD.jpg&imgrefurl=http://josephsmith.net/josephsmith/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid%3D0bda0fbab57f0010VgnVCM1000001f5e340aRCRD&h=500&w=370&sz=47&tbnid=vBMGggRmZZfaYM:&tbnh=95&tbnw=70&zoom=1&usg=__4ZrkPU0yZSyyLRDDgE3BfZYNG2E=&docid=O9SRyRiIDva9YM&sa=X&ei=s0h8Ua7oMYzc8wSBzYDwBA&ved=0CE4Q9QEwAg&dur=633

Here is what happened

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.mormonthink.com/img/trans5.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.mormonthink.com/transbomweb.htm&h=350&w=676&sz=165&tbnid=rAXlrwIjtvz8dM:&tbnh=61&tbnw=118&prev=/search%3Fq%3Djoseph%2Bsmith%2Bhat%26tbm%3Disch%26tbo%3Du&zoom=1&q=joseph+smith+hat&usg=__Nw5dIZX2E4ucKa3j-2hvEm3sc68=&docid=R6MX-wQyIo935M&hl=en&sa=X&ei=5kl8UYT3OZLW8gT_noHABA&sqi=2&ved=0CFQQ9QEwBA&dur=487