I haven't yet watched the ABC special on perfectionism in Utah, but I will watch it while I work today! I thought I'd post some quotes from a speech Spencer Kimball gave to BYU students.

Some people have told me that perfectionism comes from misunderstanding the gospel. I remember being taught that the gospel is perfectionism. In fact, in perusing "The miracle of Forgiveness", I thought that the book represents the whole of Mormonism that I was taught as a kid.

"Be Ye therefore Perfect", Spencer Kimball
http://speeches.byu.edu/?act=viewitem&id=711

"Let me say, then, that perfection is still our goal. It is reached by climbing steadily upward, controlling all our desires, impulses, and urges. It is possible. Remember that the Lord gave us Abraham as an example and quoted him often: "Abraham received all things, whatsoever he received, by revelation and commandment, by my word, saith the Lord, and hath entered into his exaltation and sitteth upon his throne" (D&C 132:29). This is not a promise; it is a reality. "Go ye, therefore, and do the works of Abraham; enter ye into my law and ye shall be saved" (D&C 132:32)."

"Paul indicated that all could attain perfection. The fact that most of us are far from perfection is not to say we can't, but we don't. Christ became perfect. He overcame. He suffered hunger, thirst, cold, heat, pain, sorrow, and all that life has to offer in suffering. Each time he overcame, he become more nearly perfect. Paul said:
'And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.' [Hebrews 5:9]
'For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.' [Hebrews 2:10]
Perfection is a long, hard journey with many pitfalls. It's not attainable overnight. Eternal vigilance is the price of victory. Eternal vigilance is required in the subduing of enemies and in becoming the master of oneself. It cannot be accomplished in little spurts and disconnected efforts. There must be constant and valiant, purposeful living—righteous living. The glory of the Lord can be had only through correct and worthy marriage and living a clean, worthy life."

"Man can transform himself and he must. Man has in himself the seeds of godhood, which can germinate and grow and develop. As the acorn becomes the oak, the mortal man becomes a god. It is within his power to lift himself by his very bootstraps from the plane on which he finds himself to the plane on which he should be. It may be a long, hard lift with many obstacles, but it is a real possibility."

"To be perfect, then, one must begin early in his life. He or she must become the perfect husband, the perfect wife, the perfect father, the perfect mother, the perfect leader, and the perfect follower. One's marriage must be perfectly performed and perfectly kept on a hallowed plane. One must keep his life circumspect. Each person must keep himself clean and free from lusts. He must shun ugly, polluted thoughts and acts as he would an enemy. Pornographic and erotic stories and pictures are worse than polluted food. Shun them. The body has power to rid itself of sickening food. That person who entertains filthy stories or pornographic pictures and literature records them in his marvelous human computer, the brain, which can't forget this filth. Once recorded, it will always remain there, subject to recall—filthy images.
As we have stated before, the way to perfection seems to be a changing of one's life—to substitute the good for the evil in every case. Changes can come best if we take one item at a time. For instance, it's not difficult to be prefect in tithe paying, for if one pays one-tenth of his income annually, he is perfect in that respect. It is not difficult to become perfect in avoiding a swearing habit, for if one locks his mouth against all words of cursing, he is en route to perfection in that matter. If one studies the scriptures with all reasonable devotion, he has approached the perfection in that matter also."

Here's some more good stuff, this time from a current lesson manual:

http://www.lds.org/manual/the-life-and-teachings-of-jesus-and-his-apostles/section-3-the-second-year-of-jesus-public-ministry/chapter-8-be-ye-therefore-perfect?lang=eng

"Perfection is a word that causes different reactions from many people. Some people say, “Perfection? Why, that is impossible!” Others say, “Perfection? I get discouraged just thinking about it!”
Yet, would the Lord give us a commandment that was impossible for us to keep? And when he gives a commandment, doesn’t he, as Nephi said, prepare a way for us to accomplish what he commands? The Sermon on the Mount is the Lord’s blueprint for perfection."

"We Can Begin the Climb to Perfection Here and Now, One Step at a Time
(8-12) Perfection Is Compared to Climbing a Ladder
When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the gospel—you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave. (Smith, HC, 6:306–7.)"

"As with Jennifer, you may find your weaknesses and problems difficult to overcome. But could you feel justified before God if you failed to make the effort to climb the stairway to perfection? Can you see that it is possible for you to progress a step at a time toward your ultimate goal of perfection?
Now you might wish to review the remainder of the Sermon on the Mount, asking yourself this question: How can I apply the qualities suggested by Jesus that will help me to grow toward perfection?"

Well, Kimball had managed to attain perfection in @sshole-ishness.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/15/2013 01:18PM by Stray Mutt.

My mother measures (with measuring cups) the amount of water she must drink every day. She must drink the perfect amount of water.

I do wonder how much of her OCD issues come from being BIC TBM, I really do.

Black and white thinking, perfectionism, OCD: courtesy of a lifetime in TSCC but kicked into high gear by creepy old guys on power trips who have no training in psychology, philosophy or theology - just their own particular, personal pathologies to work out in the guise of being a leader.

Makes me so mad that having "laypeople" as their leaders is such a source of pride for many mormons: look at us, we have people who don't have the first f*cking clue what they're talking about telling us how to live our lives. Aren't we special?

frogdogs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I do wonder how much of her OCD issues come from
> being BIC TBM, I really do.

Or maybe she's a TBM because the church fits her OCD.

My theory is that the church is a haven for certain personality types. I don't mean all those people suffer from some clinically recognized disorder. Most are just ordinary personality types. For example, they might score heavily in one direction in a Meyers-Briggs scale.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/15/2013 01:19PM by Stray Mutt.

Haha, I really internalized this crap, and I did drive myself and everyone around me crazy.

God/nature gave you a measurement device for water. It's called "thirst". If you are thirsty, drink. If not, stop.

perfectionism is Clearly a pathology.
frogdogs nailed it.

More:

Russel M. Nelson
https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1995/10/perfection-pending?lang=eng

"If I were to ask which of the Lord’s commandments is most difficult to keep, many of us might cite Matt. 5:48: “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.”
Keeping this commandment can be a concern because each of us is far from perfect, both spiritually and temporally."

"When comparing one’s personal performance with the supreme standard of the Lord’s expectation, the reality of imperfection can at times be depressing. My heart goes out to conscientious Saints who, because of their shortcomings, allow feelings of depression to rob them of happiness in life."

"Mortal perfection can be achieved as we try to perform every duty, keep every law, and strive to be as perfect in our sphere as our Heavenly Father is in his. If we do the best we can, the Lord will bless us according to our deeds and the desires of our hearts."

"Moroni taught how to gain this glorious objective. His instruction stands in any age as an antidote for depression and a prescription for joy. I echo his plea: “Come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; … love God with all your might, mind and strength … [Then] ye may be perfect in Christ, … holy, [and] without spot.”"




William H. Bennet- Perfection is Our Goal
https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1976/10/our-goal-is-perfection?lang=eng

"Our Lord and Savior in His great Sermon on the Mount gave us our greatest challenge and most important goal when He said, “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” (Matt. 5:48.) In these words Jesus challenges us to strive for excellence in all that we do—to develop our talents and abilities—and above all to live in accordance with His teachings.

The pursuit of excellence should be major work of our lives. Many people, however, give little attention to it. Perhaps they feel that it is not possible for anyone to reach perfection in this life, and so they let the immediate pressures dominate their actions. While it is true that we cannot attain perfection in a total sense in this life, it is also true that we can attain perfection in many specific areas of activity. Furthermore, if we fail to do what we can and should do in this life, we may deprive ourselves forever of the opportunity to do those things later on and thus lose great eternal blessings."

"No one is perfect, but everyone should be striving for perfection."




LDS Manual
http://www.lds.org/manual/preparing-for-exaltation-teachers-manual/lesson-22-striving-for-perfection?lang=eng

"Although Jesus was without sin, he did not become perfect—complete, finished, fully developed—until after he was resurrected (see Luke 13:32; see also the conference address by Elder Nelson listed in the “Preparation” section). Likewise, we will not be perfected until after we are resurrected. But our Father in Heaven and our Savior expect us to begin the process of perfection while we are on the earth and to make a sincere daily effort toward becoming perfect.

Explain that as the first person to be resurrected and become perfect, Jesus Christ set an example for us to follow. Have class members find and mark the last two sentences of 3 Nephi 27:27 (from Therefore to the end of the verse). Have a class member read these sentences aloud.

What does this verse suggest about how we begin to work toward perfection? (We work toward perfection by becoming as much like Christ as possible.)

Have class members find and read Moroni 10:32.

According to this verse, what must we do to “come unto Christ, and be perfected in him”? (“Deny [ourselves] of all ungodliness, and love God with all [our] might, mind and strength.”)

Explain that “deny yourselves of all ungodliness” means “give up your sins.” We must strive to give up our sins and demonstrate that we love God with all our might, mind, and strength. If we do this throughout our lives, then Jesus Christ, through his Atonement, will help us become perfect."


"On the chalkboard draw a pathway with many stepping-stones (see the illustration on the following page). Explain that this pathway represents the process of working toward perfection. Write Perfection at the top of the pathway.

Remind class members that while perfection cannot be entirely achieved in this life, we can make great progress toward it. The Lord expects us to do all we can toward giving up our sins and becoming perfect, and he has given us the gospel to help us do this."


"Remind class members that perfection is not attained suddenly. When we feel overwhelmed at how far we seem to be from perfection, we can focus on learning and growing in one or two areas at a time."


"Point out that enduring to the end does not mean reaching a certain level of progress and then simply maintaining that level. It means working every day to become a more righteous person."


“Brothers and sisters, let us do the best we can and try to improve each day. When our imperfections appear, we can keep trying to correct them. We can be more forgiving of flaws in ourselves and among those we love. … We need not be dismayed if our earnest efforts toward perfection now seem so arduous and endless. Perfection … awaits all who love [the Lord] and keep his commandments” (in Conference Report, Oct. 1995, 118; or Ensign, Nov. 1995, 88).


"Remind class members not to become discouraged if perfection seems far away. Encourage each class member to choose one principle of the gospel and make a special effort this week to work toward perfection in that area."

Perfect instruction on how to literally drive yourself and those around you crazy.

Once you're in your crazy mode, go to the DR. and try to find the perfect pill to calm your crazies.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/15/2013 10:38AM by mia.

I'm not even sure what that means, in the real world, but I have zero desire to become perfect myself. And if I was for some reason perfect, whatever that means, would I severely distrust the other perfected people I encountered? And would I be extremely bored with myself and around other perfected people?

That lesson all sounds like nonsensical gobbledygook. I'll take real, good-people any day over those who want to be, or somehow are, "perfect."

I agree.

Who gets to decide what perfect is?

The fact that SWK was/is considered a prophet is proof enough that the TSCC is bogus.

Perfection doesn't exist in the past or the future. It only exists in the now. If you can let the past go, stop worrying about the future, and be happy now, you're perfect.

No one is perfect because perfection does not exist. What your idea of perfect and mine are two different things.

Trying to be a better person is what you should always strive for. People who strive for perfection are often insufferable and make others miserable. Therefore their perfectionism ruins their relationships with others.

Sometimes good enough is better than perfect.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/15/2013 03:04PM by axeldc.

Is not "being ye therefore perfect" ascribed to Jesus in the Book of Matthew and Book of Mormon? Why is this relic no longer emphasized in present-day Mormonism? When has perfection ever been emphasized by modern-day Christians? Oh of course, that was why Jesus supposedly sacrificed his life, for imperfect us, the great unwashed.

It is still emphasized. The quotes above were from current lesson manuals and recent talks, with only one exception.

I have no particular desire for myself or loved ones to be perfect. What I want us to be is happy.

This is what happens when these guys take a word out of the bible - "perfect" - and twist it to their own designs. The word perfect in this sense meant "complete". When one accepts Jesus as their Savior they become complete or a finished work. Doing a bunch of stuff really well isn't what this scripture says.

oh my f**king gudness really?? yea well that dude was a mean creep. he said why marry out of the temple and "live in a frozen wilderness that might never thaw" and the missionaries on that chat room thing told me it doesnt matter that everyone gose through the temple so marrying out of it doesnt matter. so kimball is saying he knows that if you marry out of the temple you live in a frozen wilderness??!! Thank you for my brain and my heart god which i dont know why they exist and i attribute them to something other than me or god who or what ever you are these things have encouraged me out of believing something that hurt and hindered me in my life. My world is on a steady path of learning and happiness bumps and imperfections included. I AM PERFECTLY ME