They dropped by because a foster daughter who was in our home years ago is still listed as an unbaptized child of record. There was an elder from Hawaii and a new 18 year old from Portugal, who spoke excellent English.

They asked me about the child, and I told them she was no longer with us. Then they asked why I don't attend. I told them there are doctrinal problems and that I believe the Church is a corrupt organization; that it talks a lot about Jesus, but in the end it doesn't do many of the humanitarian things Jesus explicitly said his people should do.

Elder Portugal mostly just sat the whole time and shook his head with an irate look in his eyes.

Anyway, Elder Hawaii, asked what specifically I thought was wrong with the teachings. I told him I had a problem with the culture of and supreme importance obedience in the Church. He said the Church would never lead us astray, and that's why we should be obedient to our leaders, because they are inspired by God.

I asked him what he would have done if his Bishop called him late one night and asked him to help castrate an adulterer, or if his Stake President asked him to dress like a Paiute and slaughter men, women and children.

He said he would DO IT!!!

I told him that was unfortunate. He told me I was unfortunate. I told him that I don't have the poor fortune of choosing a belief that would potentially lead me to commit attrocities simply out of obedience.

At this point Elder Portugal piped up and asked me, "If you obey your priesthood leader, and he ends up being wrong, then who is held accountable? The leader is held accountable!"

I said, "That actually defies your own articles of faith. You are accountable for what you do, not anyone else." I let him know that the "obedience" defense didn't fly at Nuremburg, and it doesn't fly with me.

They abruptly got up to leave. I reminded them they're supposed to leave me with a prayer, and I said a prayer: Non-preachy. Just a simple prayer of thanks.

You were wonderful! Perhaps you've planted the proverbial seed. Who could sit and hear someone say, "I'd do it" and not add it to the craziness already on the shelf.

When people ask me now why I left, I say, "The Book of Mormon is a work of 19th C. fiction". I have more than enough evidence on hand to support that.

Sorry the missionaries were such jerks to you.

"but in the end it doesn't do many of the humanitarian things Jesus explicitly said his people should do."

what type of things are you referring to?

Mormon apologist from the early days of the board? Are you still an A-hole?

I recall dialogue and disagreement. I don´t think that I said anything the would cause you to classify me like you have. Are ad hominem attacks your mo? It seems unwarranted. If that was something I said a decade ago that makes you so mad...please tell me what it was.

One of my sons asked this:

If the purpose of coming to earth is to learn 'free will' (Jesus plan) Why must we give up 'free will' to blindly follow our leaders?

Respect. I don't talk with missionaries, but you kept it tight and real.

I would have said, "Well I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree on that one, because I don't believe God would want have have blind obedience. I believe God would WANT you to use your brain, and to follow your conscience, ESPECIALLY if something seem wrong, like killing someone."

I'd never want fanatical religious nuts like that in my home. I wouldn't want wannabe cultish-murdering types to know where I live.

Those were creepy dudes.

JamesM Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I asked him what he would have done if his Bishop
> called him late one night and asked him to help
> castrate an adulterer, or if his Stake President
> asked him to dress like a Paiute and slaughter
> men, women and children.
>
> He said he would DO IT!!!
>
> I told him that was unfortunate. He told me I was
> unfortunate. I told him that I don't have the
> poor fortune of choosing a belief that would
> potentially lead me to commit attrocities simply
> out of obedience.


This worries me a lot. I know a lot of other members out there like this guy who would follow any command from their leaders at the drop of a hat. This is cultism in the extreme, and I wish something could be done to get these people to wake the hell up before more people get hurt in any way.

I had a similar heated exchange a few years ago. Almost came to two young men getting pummeled. The pudgy one figured it would go bad for them and pulled the hot headed one back in the car. Now, I just tell them to get off my property as I did not invite them on to it. They have ZERO right to come to your property and question you about your religious views. Zero.
Best to all,
Merrill

I'll never forget the time the missionaries came to my house and of course started trying to fish for why I was inactive. Finally I said JS was worshiped over Jesus in TSCC and the polygamy thing was just too much for me. The one mish then told me that JS was forced to enact this because an angel with a fiery sword came down and told JS to institute polygamy or else he'd be killed...that about did it for me. I looked at my DH and he wouldn't make eye contact cause he knew what was coming...

I told them I had a huge problem with that little story. Then the other one tried to downplay it and act like that wasn't true. I even had a mish tell me I could drink coffee as long as I wasn't addicted before I got baptized. Yep. He said that. How that didn't show me what a lie this was I don't know. I was a sale. DH used to get mad at me cause I'd ask the mish all these detailed questions and he'd say NO ONE can answer this stuff. No, the church had answers, they were smart enough to know not to tell me though cause I would have RUN.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/21/2013 02:12PM by charpop705.