Im sure youve seen this play out many times, in LDS Wards all over the place.

The struggling, financially strapped family that drains the Ward Welfare Fund, with the delusional Peter Priesthood Holder, thinking that he is one break away from hitting it big..as Molly dutifully slaves away in the home that they can barely keep together, popping out kids left and right.

The Gospel is Cha-Ruuuuuuuuuh

I pity the members who fall for that spiel.

Mormon leaders want members to breed more tithe payers, no matter what the cost to each individual family.

I'm sure they will be blessed....

could have been in this category in their 20s. They had 3 children in a row with 1 miscarriage in between. He was working a very low-paying job. She finally decided that they needed to go back to school. They were DIRT poor in school. I couldn't believe how they were living!!

They both got a degree, quit having babies, though are still TBM. Their kids, though, are all out of any organized religion whatsoever.

I'm not sure what all this judgmental criticism is all about? I thought former LDS folks were trying to be more accepting of others, and giving unconditional love..... hmmm...

SusieQ#1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm not sure what all this judgmental criticism is
> all about? I thought former LDS folks were trying
> to be more accepting of others, and giving
> unconditional love..... hmmm...


One begins to feel after a while that you are really only here as an apologist. Of course, the written medium is not ideal for determining context as we don't have facial clues, etc.

How is breeding more kids than you can afford to have a good idea? I'm curious.

Many have been feeling that way for years.


Why anyone would preach that it's a good idea to make more babies when you can't afford to feed, clothe or house the ones you already have... Only sick people think things like this.

Oh yeah, the church is there for them, right...
But first they will inventory what food you have and snoop everywhere to make sure you're not hiding any.
They will go over your finances for you and make sure you cut everything nonessential EXCEPT tithing.
Then they will tell you to go to your family and the government first.
And they will ask you over and over what sins you are committing to keep gawd from blessing you!

But yes, after picking apart your meager life, they will eventually give you cannery food after you cry and beg them enough and have exhausted the patience and resources of your friends and family.
Most of the food from the cannery was in too poor condition to sell, the rest of which was laden with preservatives or processing methods that make it unfit for small children to grow on.

This is not something that should be supported.

If it wasn't for tithing and the whole make-babies-because-GAWD, every last couple I have met in this mormon situation WOULD NOT BE STRUGGLING!



Blah blah blah from snoozy accusing of anger again, no surprise. No empathy for the children, children are property, not people to be considered.
Angry retorts are obviously generated by anger, so why deny it? Oh that's right, must keep up the happy smiley "you can't touch me" facade.
Never able to accept a different view or the possibility of being wrong.

Take your own advice and don't reply to posts you think so little of. Your stock programming is outdated and you are unwilling to "upgrade" by learning. Same old story, every time. At least I know WHY now, gawd...

And no, you do not respect OUR equal rights here. Your denigration and dismissal are apologetic maneuvers, no matter how you deny it.
Give us the same consideration you demand.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/21/2013 05:14PM by WinksWinks.

fiona64 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SusieQ#1 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I'm not sure what all this judgmental criticism
> is
> > all about? I thought former LDS folks were
> trying
> > to be more accepting of others, and giving
> > unconditional love..... hmmm...
>
>
> One begins to feel after a while that you are
> really only here as an apologist. Of course, the
> written medium is not ideal for determining
> context as we don't have facial clues, etc.
>
> How is breeding more kids than you can afford to
> have a good idea? I'm curious.


You forget a basic principle. Rarely do we see a family that can't manage somehow with the many resources available.
Besides, it's none of our business how many kids someone has or why or why they have less or more than we do. Really. I find that kind of thing to be so out of line, it's appalling.

But, hey, that's just me.

Just because I don't hate Mormons, and am not angry, bitter, and filled with resentment ripping Mormonism apart at ever moment, doesn't mean i am an apologist. That's just silly.

I live with and love Mormons and always will and I will respect everyone's EQUAL RIGHTS to ANY religion they want to live as that is one of our precious freedoms in this country.

You want anger, hate, bitterness, resentment? DO NOT READ MY POSTS I don't do that.

I respect and honor everyone's EQUAL RIGHTS to their beliefs and I sure would like to see a lot more of it.

I've lived a long time and made a lot of observations! Love unconditionally. Live with the great power of gratitude. Forgive everyone everything. Those are some of my beliefs that give me a life of joy and freedom and peace of mine.

But, hey, that's just me!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/21/2013 05:00PM by SusieQ#1.

Why are you on a RECOVERY from Mormonism board, then? It's fine that you're here, up until you go and tell everyone that they shouldn't be mad at the church, when you constantly belittle the people (passive aggressively so) those that are here expressing their feelings trying to recover. If you are just here for companionship, there are better places for that. You should stop with your completely condescending and unloving form of deriding those that have strong feelings about the church.

SusieQ#1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You forget a basic principle. Rarely do we see a
> family that can't manage somehow with the many
> resources available.

Who is “we”? Did you know my family? And “managing somehow” might seem like an acceptable state of existence to you but given the deprivation and occasional neglect (both physical and emotional) it sure wasn’t to me.

> Besides, it's none of our business how many kids
> someone has or why or why they have less or more
> than we do. Really. I find that kind of thing to
> be so out of line, it's appalling.

So I take it that the considerable pressure TSCC puts upon people to marry and start having children as soon, and as many, as possible is thus pretty ‘out of line and appalling’ to you then?

You can’t have it both ways.

Is TSCC morally in the wrong for pressuring members barely out of their teens (or sometimes still teens) who barely know each other and scant means to provide for them, to have lots of children?

Or do you agree that perhaps the more ethical thing to do would be for TSCC to stay out of its members’ private reproductive choices by the leaders *remaining silent* from the pulpit, their publications, at official conferences, etc, on things like family size and when to marry, pre-existence spirit children, etc?

> But, hey, that's just me.

> Just because I don't hate Mormons, and am not
> angry, bitter, and filled with resentment ripping
> Mormonism apart at ever moment, doesn't mean i am
> an apologist. That's just silly.

Yet you seem far too willing to characterize those who are angry, bitter and resentful - often for very good reasons - as coming from an invalid place compared to you.

> I live with and love Mormons and always will and I
> will respect everyone's EQUAL RIGHTS to ANY
> religion they want to live as that is one of our
> precious freedoms in this country.

Good for you for living with/loving mormons. Consider yourself lucky and understand that many others do not share your good fortune in finding it easy to do either, myself included, again for reasons that are just as valid as yours.

Very few here seem to have been seriously arguing that mormonism should be against the law, so where’s the threat to equal rights being perceived?

What I'd like to see is for mormonism to become widely and publicly recognized as the socially destructive, corrupt corporation it is so that future generations will find remaining in it or converting to it highly undesirable.

> You want anger, hate, bitterness, resentment? DO
> NOT READ MY POSTS I don't do that.

This is a disingenuous statement. It is natural for those reading a thread to see your reply in the context of the thread. Perhaps you’d better begin prefacing every comment you post with a header: “WARNING! My posts do not contain anger, hate, bitterness and resentment. If that describes your outlook, DO NOT read further."

> I respect and honor everyone's EQUAL RIGHTS to
> their beliefs and I sure would like to see a lot
> more of it.
>
> I've lived a long time and made a lot of
> observations! Love unconditionally. Live with the
> great power of gratitude. Forgive everyone
> everything. Those are some of my beliefs that give
> me a life of joy and freedom and peace of mine.
>
> But, hey, that's just me!!

From what you say, it sounds like you’ve found your own path out and feel that you have ‘recovered’ from the effects of being a mormon. You have been able to retain some value in the religion based upon your personal experience of leaving it. So what’s your motivation for remaining here? To continue proselytizing to others with widely varying experiences that we’re recovering from mormonism the wrong way, and that we should instead forgive everyone, be grateful, joyful and respectful?

For various reasons within my family of origin, I continue to feel brutalized, traumatized and harmed by TSCC, so my attitude will never be one of "live and let live". If that makes me a hate filled, bitter, resentful ex-mormon shrew, so be it.

I'm happy that 'live and let live' works for you. It doesn't work for me.

I really appreciate when someone clearly and succinctly addresses the issues so precisely instead of whatever else it is that some do.

...when acceptance of an irresponsible lifestyle leads to inter-generational poverty and all the ignorance and suffering that go along with that.

My parents were that young couple - 6 kids they could in no way afford after the first 1 or 2. 2nd kid born while mom was still in school at BYU, had to drop out. Dad barely graduated. Granted, my dad left TSCC shortly after kid 5 was born and kid 6 was definitely an "oops".

Had my dad not left at that time, there's a very good chance that my TBM mom would've gotten her way and had 12 kids, not 6.

All of my siblings struggle financially, many living hand to mouth. Only one of us has managed to get a college degree (and all the student debt that goes with it). The last TBM holdout sibling (the youngest) married far too young, neither she nor her husband have a college degree, and now have 4 kids - one with special needs. Her sense of entitlement for her righteous lifestyle is both staggering and enraging to me.

My parents are still married and never really got back on their feet after having so many kids they couldn't afford so young - never managed to build up savings since they spent most of the past 25 years paying off low-quality debt accumulated from raising a large family on an extremely limited income. Now it's falling to one brother and me to try to support them as health reasons have forced retirement at 67 - and they have absolutely nothing to live on but their meager social security.

I have a chronic degenerative disease with considerable health expenses and worries to cope with, so you better believe I'm resentful as hell at the LDS church for encouraging this sort of bullshit financial irresponsibility in their members as a "righteous" way to live. It exploitative and continues to infuriate me, knowing that my nieces and nephews are growing up in near poverty. It has had direct and extremely negative effects on my life, both as a child growing up and now as an older adult just struggling to get by myself.

So I'm kind of tired of this notion that we should all take a "live and let live" compassionate attitude toward mormons who continue to behave this irresponsibly because they refuse to think critically about mormonism. Criticism can be constructive, and I think that's exactly what needs to continue - zero tolerance or warm fuzzies ("unconditional love") for people placing their families at needless risk. Their blind faith in a corrupt institution that exploits them and causes avoidable suffering needs to be called out, ridiculed if necessary.

Well stated. How someone can't see this as harmful, I will never know.

Thank you for sharing your story, I'm sorry you are suffering the consequences of your parents poor planning due to TSCC's manipulation.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/21/2013 05:34PM by itsneverover.

Some people have either zero understanding of the realities of intergenerational poverty's effects or zero empathy for the children. Yes, substandard nutrition is great for kids! (SARCASM) That's why I'm 4 inches shorter than I should be. But ask my parents and they'll tell you I was well fed on instant food and well clothed from thrift stores.
Yeah, nutritionally empty food filled my belly, but did not meet my nutritional needs, but then again, maybe that explains the absolutely uncompassionate thinking expressed in the supposedly "live and let live" posts. Brain starvation.
I'm going to guess that I care more about the neglected children of mormonism, even though I have none of my own, than the actual grandmother posting this crap does.
No, it's more important for mommy to do her duty than it is to be concerned about the children already alive and struggling.

It's not okay.

I was an adult before I knew that most families consider Spanish rice a side dish and not an entire meal.

I could name other examples, but that's a good one. Food insecurity is not just about not enough food, either; it's about not enough variation in diet.

We experienced both kinds in our house.

SusieQ#1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm not sure what all this judgmental criticism is
> all about? I thought former LDS folks were trying
> to be more accepting of others, and giving
> unconditional love..... hmmm...


I needed to qualify that statement, I thought the tone was evident, but I guess not, it was sarcasm...

I saw it as sarcasm right away. Known you online for several years now. You seem apologetic at times but a different perspective is always good. And I have to give you kudos for living the "live and let live' rule as a non-believer married to a believer. So yours is real life experience.

they will need a biger house for the soon to be blessings that there will not be room enough to recive it..

or some bs line as it was taught to me.

SusieQ#1, the OP brings up a very valid point. And is not being judgemental or intolerant of the people in question. The point is that the LDS Gospel encourages this kind of family, society, culture.

You lately seem to often practically play the role of an LDS apologist or something. Generally, posters on this board DO love people unconditionally......it's the founders and high leaders of the so called "church" that are rightly under some fire. The OP's point is well-taken.

milkb4myth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SusieQ#1, the OP brings up a very valid point.
> And is not being judgemental or intolerant of the
> people in question. The point is that the LDS
> Gospel encourages this kind of family, society,
> culture.
>
> You lately seem to often practically play the role
> of an LDS apologist or something. Generally,
> posters on this board DO love people
> unconditionally......it's the founders and high
> leaders of the so called "church" that are rightly
> under some fire. The OP's point is well-taken.


I was being factitious... sarcastic... but it was taken literally... guess I needed a smiley face... or another comment explaining it..hard to get tone in black and white...

Unlike SusieQ, I don't see this story as a condemnation of the couple but of Mormonism/The Mormon culture for encouraging this sort of behavior as "righteousness." Granted, maybe these people would have had struggles anywhere, based on their shortcomings or personality issues. But Mormonism encourages kids to marry without education or financial stability or a plan. And it encourages you to have babies right away and not put them off because there are spirit children waiting to get into a good home. They are promised blessings and promised the Lord will provide. As the other poster mentioned, the sense of entitlement in some of these people is incredible because they believe they deserve the blessings since they did what they were taught was right and good - to have a bunch of babies and trust in the Lord.

Who knows where this couple would be without the church? Possible they would have finished their education before having the 4 kids or taken time to start a successful business or limited themselves to 1 or 2 kids. Or maybe they would have made their lives difficult regardless. But the church's teachings certainly didn't help one bit. This family is a victim of the church's mentality and what that mentality encourages, the lies that are told to young people in Mormonism is certainly worth examining and criticizing.

+1

I see it as a condemnation of TSCC's leadership, not so much the couples who think that everything will work out if they follow The Brethren's counsel, as they have been programmed.

There are, no doubt, more egregious--and more recent--examples of The Brethren condemning those who would limit family size, but one quick search yielded this gem from the October 1974 General Conference talk entitled "God Will Not Be Mocked" by then-President of TCoJCoLDS, even Spencer I-Love-to-Think-About-Men's-Dangly-Bits Kimball:

"We are aghast at the reports of young people going to surgery to limit their families and the reputed number of parents who encourage this vasectomy. Remember that the coming of the Lord approaches, and some difficult-to-answer questions will be asked by a divine Judge who will be hard to satisfy with silly explanations and rationalizations. He will judge justly, you may be sure."

http://www.lds.org/general-conference/1974/10/god-will-not-be-mocked?lang=eng

I was a kid when Spencer gave this talk, and I remember asking my parents, "What's a vasectomy?" Oy!

CA girl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm an equal rights promoter. If this is the choice of the couple, so be it.

Nobody is starving, there are plenty of resources and who knows, maybe they will go to college later in life.

We make our own choices and I leave it entirely to the couple to make those decisions. And my husband was laid off more than once, for months at a time, once when I was pregnant. We never suffered for it. We got through using resources and what was available to us.

We had kids when we had very little money but we survived just fine.
I would never blame a religion for that.

I don't condemn a religion or a person for making their own decisions. Just not what life is about in my experience.

I'm not about to condemn anyone.

SusieQ#1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Nobody is starving, there are plenty of resources
> and who knows, maybe they will go to college later
> in life.

How do you know if someone is malnourished or not? How do you know there are plenty of resources? Going to college later in life magically will solve serious problems - in reverse?

What if someone becomes sick or injured, affecting their access to the plentiful resources or going to college later?

> We make our own choices and I leave it entirely to
> the couple to make those decisions. And my husband
> was laid off more than once, for months at a time,
> once when I was pregnant. We never suffered for
> it. We got through using resources and what was
> available to us.

Once again, this was *your* experience. I'm happy it worked out for you. It did not turn out so rosy in my TBM family.

> We had kids when we had very little money but we
> survived just fine.
> I would never blame a religion for that.

And again. Your experience. My mother was trained and brainwashed from birth to listen to her religious leaders and authorities. Are you really suggesting that mormonism doesn't practically force motherhood and large families down the throat of their members?

So those who were not as mentally or emotionally strong as you to resist obeying the religious authorities deserve what they get, and should stop blaming the church for undue influence?

> I don't condemn a religion or a person for making
> their own decisions. Just not what life is about
> in my experience.

I do condemn a religion for the destructive effects it had on my BIC TBM mom who was brainwashed from birth for the sole purpose of having as many kids as she could bear.

I'm happy for your experience being different. My experience was also different and deserves just as much respect as yours, even if it results in my being angry and hateful toward a corrupt institution. I don't hate my mom, or mormons for that matter. I do hate the corporation.

> I'm not about to condemn anyone.

It's been difficult to see that in the way you minimize others' experiences.

I can't say what is was like back in the day, but I have children in my classroom who cry every day from hunger. Many poor children do not get dinner at night. We give them a free breakfast and lunch, but that's assuming that their parents have their act together enough to get the kids to school in time for breakfast. Sometimes or even often, they don't. Many times there's an inadequate supply of food available to a family for weekends or vacation time. We get periodic food pantry deliveries at our school, and it helps, but its not enough.

I've paid home visits to some of my students' families (an urban teacher tradition.) No furniture, an empty fridge. It's not that unusual.

One of my current students cried every day for several weeks from a hurting tooth. That's how long it took for her parent to take her in for a needed root canal. I don't know about you, but when I got my root canal, it was in less than 24 hours from my initial visit to a dentist.

And in case you're wondering, at least half of the kids in my class have a parent who is working two jobs. Rents in my school neighborhood are not that far off of what I pay for my mortgage.

We have board members here who grew up in Mormon homes without adequate food, clothing, or medical care.

Our culture is long past the point where you can have children and wish for the best. If you want to provide adequately for your children, there must be a plan in place.

SusieQ#1 Wrote:

> Nobody is starving,

Actually, that's inaccurate. Food insecurity is at its highest in our country's history. Here's the most recent available report. http://www.ers.usda.gov/publications/err-economic-research-report/err141.aspx#.UZwDw0qyPTo

Many kids' only meal in a day is the free lunch they get at school.

Good facts. I hope it's a reality check for those living in rose-glasses land.

Could have been me O_O

BIL had like 4 kids in a row... two of his kids while living with his parents... going on like 5 years now? Still gotta make babies even though he has no job.

Meanwhile:
Me and hubby are struggling financially, but still get pressured to have more kids.. and to pay our tithing and we will be blessed.

But of course, it's all relative.... lest I be accused of being judgmental.

I've got quite a few nieces and nephews who go without... while their parent's bonus checks go to the church. The parents feel horribly guilty because they think they're cheating the Lord, and blessings are being withheld during the rest of the year when they can't quite get that full tithe out.

I wish my parents had cared for my well being as much as they cared to sacrifice that ten percent!

And I would bet there are lots of kids currently and previously growing up in the church who feel the same way.

Is the ward welfare fund the same thing as Fast offering fund?
I am sure people are paying less fast offerings these days since many can hardly pay the mandatory 10%.

Social welfare should be a safety net in my opinion. What really gripes me is when a family has used social and church welfare for their many many kids, but will b*tch and moan about single mothers using it. Then the same people will turn around and support political candidates who bad mouth welfare and want to do away it.

Maybe god will bless him with that lucrative job after they have their 5th or 6th.

This was my sister, 4th kid born right after #1 turned 6, hubby hadn't had a job for years, except off and on, they live on welfare, he plays lots of video games while the government feeds his kids and provides medical care. She looks at us with envy and feels that we've been handed everything on a silver platter because we struggled through school, had three kids when sithlord graduated, and have made something of ourselves. She's now bitter and angry at God.

My cousin age 35 has 7 kids she doesn't believe in birth control she believes god will provide her kids seem very happy and she looks worn out.

my TBM relative had a daughter at a young age. She was excommunicated for that. She spent the next 15 years working and being a rather successful single mom and provided well. Around age 35 she got a wild hair up her butt to go back to church with her TBM family's support. She was rebaptised and went through the temple....and then popped out 7 kids. She is now divorced (got dumped) and is 45/46...no income, just help from the church. Ex in prison. Woo-hoo, sounds fun doesn't it?

What is so insidious about the church's pressure to have as many children as possible even if you are too young or too poor, and lacking education, is that they are not just pressuring any youth. They are pressuring youth that have been indoctrinated since childhood to accept this advice that is diametrically opposed to their own best interests. These kids have been brainwashed from birth to do whatever the prophet says. They are being pushed to be breeding stock as they forfeit their dreams.

These are not just poor choices that some may make out of inexperience as the board apologist would have us believe. These are choices born out of cult control tactics. The only benefit is to the power hungry old church leaders who have absolutely no morals and no one's best interests at heart but their own.

The Lord doesn't provide. The church members provide for the leaders.

This is where TSCC is at its most destructive, and immoral, because other innocent lives are involved.

After having little or no opportunity to think any other possible way due to brainwashing they're exposed to constantly from birth - and often as in my mom's case the added heavy expectation of being the next in line of several generations of "Saints" going back to JS's time - telling BIC TBM young women to be mothers and have lots of kids is like shooting fish in a barrel.

Not that all adult converts are the same, either, but one would expect that converts might have had at least some exposure to independent thinking as well as relatives who might support a choice that is different, unless they're coming straight from another cult.

To compare life-altering decisions made under the influence of lifelong brainwashing to the same decisions made out of a desire to follow one's bliss ("we don't have a lot of money - but we want to raise a family!") is like, well. Comparing apples to oranges.

"...like shooting fish in a barrel." Ka-ching!

In my opinion it is important for the church to support it's members and not to build a MALL.
"financially strapped family that drains the Ward Welfare Fund" again just my opinion but I think the church should spend more money on it's members and less in investments.