While some bishops and stake presidents honestly try to address the concerns of their questioning members, too many don't know the issues facing the church and are too threatened to educate themselves. In my experience, a number of bishops just try to intimidate you into not asking questions by:

1) yelling or belittling you
2) threatening your family by saying "Are these questions worth losing your family for all eternity?" Making you feel that your honest questioning will cause your divorce and your children to fail.
3) asking you what sin you are committing, putting you on the defensive
4) implying you are too lazy or selfish to live the commandments. Bishop Jackwagon sneered at me and said "why is it all about money with you?" when I mentioned City Creek mall. Which was rich considering my husband makes considerably more money than BJ. Apparently he perceived my questioning of how tithing is spent as an excuse for me to selfishly hang onto my money so I could buy worldly things.
5) asking who offended you, implying you are being a baby making mountains out of molehills.
6) blowing you off with some platitude like "you just need to read your scriptures and pray" or "either the First Vision is true or the church is a fraud - you need to pray about the First Vision."
7) making it sound like you are ignorant of the church, despite your serving a mission/years of church attendance/BYU degree etc. Making you feel that your stupidity in not comprehending the glorious gospel is your own fault.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/24/2013 12:19PM by CA girl.

How did you come up with the name Bishop Jackwagon? I think that is one of the funniest names on here. Especially when you reduce it to BJ!

There was a commercial on TV a few years ago, where they referred to someone as a Jackwagon. Since DH and I called BJ "that Jackass" in private, we needed something cleaner to call him when the kids were around so we picked up on Jackwagon from that commercial. I suppose we could have risen above it and called him "Bob" or "Satan" but we were pretty mad at him for a year or so after he yelled at me so we didn't take the high road. We did upgrade him to "Satan" eventually and now we do refer to him by his first name, on the rare occasion his name comes up. But the nickname Bishop Jackwagon stuck with everyone here and my non-LDS friends.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/24/2013 12:28PM by CA girl.

Was it the Geiko commercial with the drill sergeant as therapist?

One of my favorite commercials of ALL time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfmVBmDKLZI

Yes - I couldn't remember who the commercial was for, just the drill sergeant bit.

That drill sargeant is retired Gunnery Sargeant R. Lee Ermey of the Marine Corp, spokesman for Glock, host of Lock and Load, and an actor. Love his shows.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/24/2013 01:56PM by Now a Gentile.

telling you, "that was then and this is now". It ends the discussion because somehow that gives us a do over today and the past doesn't matter.

Etch-A-Sketch theology.

8) Pride. I was too proud to ask. Because only the humble are teachable and don't ask questions. I had Bishop even refer to the ETB talk on pride. I did my best not to laugh thinking how Benson didn't even write that talk and whoever did, took it from someone else.

Yes - good one deconverted. Keeping an open mind isn't pride, a closed one is and someone who is studying the church is much more open than someone who refuses to even consider the idea their church might be wrong. That door swings both ways, for all the bishops want to slam it on us.

I like a phrase that was used by R. G. Ingrsoll quite a bit whenever he spoke of ridiculous doctrine or thought-stoppers they often use. "THAT WON'T DO!" I want to say that to a bishop.

+

A General Authority once said that his son was wondering about serving a mission, but the question was quickly resolve with a few questions.

When I heard this, I was certain that this GA used "The Three-point Put-down" - a device that is often used to intimidate active members who are still too intimidated to say what they truly feel -- Members like this GA's son.

THE THREE-POINT PUT-DOWN:


Question 1: "Do you believe that President Big Shot is a true prophet of God?"

Answer: (Reluctantly, but necessarily) "... Yes"


Question 2: "Are you aware that President Big Shot has said all young men should serve as missionaries?"

Answer: (Again, reluctantly and unavoidably) "... Yes"



Question 3: "So then, are you going on a mission?"

Answer: (Obligatory) "...yes..."



With this trick, the poor kid is trapped. It's currently unacceptable for him to come out and actually admit that he doesn't believe in the Church or President Big Shot. And if the particular issue isn't a mission, it's tithing, or marrying in the temple, or any other church imposition, or doctrinal concern, or historical problem.

The "Three-point Put-down" is universally useful -- it works in all of these cases and keeps the leader from having to address the real issue at hand.

+

I remember one Bishop I came to when I had questions. I think I asked him about the Adam God doctrine from the JoD, and told him that I had been studying with an exmo couple turned Baptist, and their pastor.

When he heard that someone was was working on me, he lost all of his spiritual leverage with me by losing his temper. He said, with a red face, "so now they're trying to take away your salvation!" And other nonsense. All I could think of was, why won't he just address the question? Maybe there is something to hide. The spirit of contention sure showed up quick." I was too afraid to bring up my questions anymore after that. And the Baptist couple accomplished what they set out to do....without taking my salvation. :-)

The quickest answer to the Three Point Put Down is as follows:

Question 1: "Do you believe that President Big Shot is a true prophet of God?"

Answer: Yes, but as JS taught us, a Prophet is only a Prophet when acting as such.....Now, then, what were we talking about?

I have used this tactic when talking about callings that I did not want, gross vs net tithing arguments, ERA discussions, gay marriage discussions, etc.

One does not have to agree with a prophet when he is talking politics.....right Steve Benson??

Stake President to Seneca:

"I think the thing is you're an intellectual"

Seneca:

"Thank you"

Stake President:

"That wasn't a compliment"

Seneca:

<silence>

Stake President:

"You're thinking too much about this"

Seneca:

"I think I'm done here thanks for your help...good bye."

I think that was a bad attempt at belittling me. I'm glad he made it clear the Church isn't for those who think too much.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/24/2013 06:57PM by seneca.

Only in the Mormon church would being called an intellectual be an insult. And only a Mormon leader would think it prove something true for that thing not to stand up to intellectual scrutiny.

OK, maybe there are some other places like that but I wouldn't want to be in any of them either.

Mao's Cultural Revolution comes to mind.

I would love to hear the change in that conversation after a person has watched a few Christopher Hithens videos, and read his books.

I have no contact with mormons, however, I would welcome a conversation with them. I think the mormons deserve scorn, ridicule, and contempt.

The LDS corporation is a hurtful, harmful, and dangerous organization.

They need to be reminded of that.

If a bishop tried to get me to come back to church using some of these tactics, I think I might smile and say, "I love your style. You came here explicitly to get me to come back to church and managed to alienate me. You need to keep up the good work. The more people you use this on, the more people will leave your church."

It seems more like he is trying to feel superior by insulting you than by any genuine concern for your happiness and wellbeing. Better that he look good in his own eyes than seriously answer any of your concerns. Feeling the "love" never seems to come across in these types of encounters.

I recently sent in a letter to membership records to let them know I am not a member anymore. The pamphlet they sent with a reply shows how lackadaisical they are with even trying to retain people. No enthusiasm, no care, no umph. Who would want to be part of such a lackluster organization? What even brought me to a decision to leave in the first place was how boring church meetings were, absolutely boring. I've got much better things to waste my time on. And if this is God's only true church, I'd rather not go to his heaven.

I may be atheist but I'd like to say thank God for arrogant Mormon leaders. They got me to rethink what is important in life.

Agreed - I gripe about Bishop Jackwagon and his yelling and attempted manipulation but before is little performance, I was planning to keep my doubts to myself because I believed Mormonism was a good place to raise kids. After I saw how he behaved, I knew I'd hit a sore spot - knew I'd been right about how wrong the church was. When I saw how people treated me based on whatever rumors he started, I knew Mormonism wasn't a good place to raise kids. If it resulted in that sort of behavior, I wanted my children away from it, away from people who condone judging and unkindness and look down on intellectual inquiry and those who disagree with them. So actually, he did me a great favor - helping me see the Mormons in my life as they truly are, without their masks, and see the damage the religion does to people first hand.

Bish did me a favor, too! When Bishop called to see why I was not attending church, he asked the obligatory question,

Bish: "Has anyone offended you?"

Me: "No, the church is not working for me now. I have stopped going under the advice of my Dr."

This was true. Dr. told me to avoid people and places where I get upset and depressed. This was church. I stopped going and felt much better.

Bish: "This is wrong advice, this is BLAH, BLAH..."

Me: "This my seem blah, blah to you but you don't know what it is like to be me"

Bish: "WHAT??? You don't know what it is like to BE ME!!! BLAH, BLAH, BLAH!!!!"

Bish really goes off on me for not knowing what it is like to be HIM.... I think, "Well, this is really making it easy not to go back to Whacko-Church. Thanks, Crazy Bish!!!!"

This, of course, doesn't cover all the issues, but it is exactly what happened between the bishop and me.

One Sunday I had a realization. I realized that I dreaded Sundays more than any other day of the week. I realized that I came away from church feeling depressed, hopeless, and alone. I realized that seldom was anything said that was worth listening to. Seldom did I come away feeling inspired and motivated.

I realized that church was a source of anxiety and depression. There really wasn't anything else in my life that caused me to feel so horrible.

I had to ask myself why I was subjecting myself to that. Just what was in this for me? The answer was hope for the next life. I realized that if I went through this life a miserable, deprived, depressed, hopeless person that I wasn't likely to have a good next life either. In fact, I wasn't even sure there was a next life. All the money, temple visits, church guilt trips, were all for nothing. If there was a next life, I wasn't learning anything in this life that would be worth taking with me.

I was missing out on this life by being so focused on something that nobody knows anything about. Nobody knows if it even exists. I decided right then that I was no longer going to live this life in fear of where i'd be in the next. I was going to be the best I could be. If that's not good enough for God, then he needs to create a new model of human. We aren't made to go to meetings and be bored out of our minds. It starts to kill us a bite at a time.

Sounds like TSCC is scraping the bottom of the barrel for Bishops. Did all the good ones leave?

You are right, crom. Some of the men I know who have been "called" to be bishops are idiots. Well, to be fair, one was a pretty face when younger, but an intellectually light weight to put it mildly. The other was always a piggish, misbehaving brat in Seminary, who has the spirituality of a turnip. I can not imagine having this guy interview a teen about their sexuality or anything else, let alone an adult!