TBM-raised DH is very, very passive-aggressive. He rarely offers his real opinion on anything, says he will do things and then never does them, and stuffs his feelings with a vengeance (and then denies it). Today we had a typical exchange:

Me: Do you think we should get some watermelon for the picnic this afternoon?

DH: You can get some and eat it if you want.

Me: I know I can do that. Do you think it'll be any good this early in the season?

DH: (shrugging) We can do whatever you want.

If I buy the watermelon, he will complain that it isn't any good and imply I shouldn't have spent the money. If I don't buy it, he will complain that he wanted some and ask why I forgot to get it. Arrgh.

I've noticed that conflict avoidance (or even avoiding the appearance of conflict) is important to people raised in TSCC. They are also really good at setting up other people to take the blame for their own lack of decision-making and action.

A few holiday seasons ago, my asthmatic DD planned to visit us. DH decided, two days before her arrival, to completely tear up our home's only bathroom in the name of "remodeling" -- dust covered every surface on the main floor and the shower was unusable during her entire visit. She had to stay upstairs with her dust mask and inhaler nearly all the time and could hardly use the bathroom. DH (who knew very well that she had asthma) criticized her for staying upstairs so much. Three years later, he's still only half-done with the bathroom.

I saw similar behavior during my years in TSCC: HTs who accepted me as an assignment, then never once showed up but blamed it on me because they didn't feel "comfortable" visiting a single parent; RS sisters who were nice to people's faces and said awful things behind their backs; trophy wives who smiled sweetly in SM and then snubbed the living daylights out of any overweight women in the ward; Scout leaders who took the calling and then only bothered to help the kids whose parents they liked while making the minority kids feel very unwelcome.

Wow... the whole business with the bathroom and your asthmatic daughter would have had me pretty upset. That is very passive aggressive behavior, bordering on just plain mean.

In that situation you could maybe get the watermelon, but pretend you didn't. Then if he complains during the picnic that there isn't any, you can say "Oh, I've got some in the car, shall I get it for you?".

I've done similar things like that before.

I noticed too that a lot of mormons are passive aggressive. Some are okay of course, but a lot of them say things. They know full well that what they say is offensive and hurtful, but they word what they say carefully, so it sounds like it's nice, and they word their insults and accusations in a way that they can easily claim they meant something else if you call them out on it.

It's annoying, since both people in the conversation know exactly what's going on, but when a third party (e.g. your Bishop) gets involved, he'll sees the person throwing insults around as the good guy. This doesn't apply just with mormons of course. I see it happen in all walks of life, but quite frequently at church.

<They know full well that what they say is offensive and hurtful, but they word what they say carefully, so it sounds like it's nice, and they word their insults and accusations in a way that they can easily claim they meant something else if you call them out on it.

It's annoying, since both people in the conversation know exactly what's going on, but when a third party (e.g. your Bishop) gets involved, he'll sees the person throwing insults around as the good guy.>

Yes, this! I didn't grow up Mormon, and when this kind of thing happens, I am no good at dealing with it.

"They know full well that what they say is offensive and hurtful, but they word what they say carefully, so it sounds like it's nice, and they word their insults and accusations in a way that they can easily claim they meant something else if you call them out on it."

Wow, particularly when I was younger, that happened so often to me with Mormons. The first couple of times it happened, I wondered why I was hurt when people said mean things worded very carefully with a smile (I was not familiar with the term passive-agressive). As time when on and I figured out these people ("DH's "friends" before marriage, sisters-in-laws, aunts, new Mormon "friends") were really trying to be hurtful, I would tell DH, but he only heard the words and interpreted them in the most positive light. Finally, in frustration and deep hurt, I banned these people from contact with me. Problem fixed!

However, I could never figure out why these people wanted to be mean to me. Now I know from other posters' experiences that it did not just happen to me, but was pervasive in the Moron culture.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/27/2013 06:32PM by nofear.

I'm sorry you're living with that kind of person on a daily basis. Yikes.

OMG you've just described my mother.

It comes with the prohibitions against contention (or conflict), which is "of the devil". So instead of addressing disagreements like mature adults, they artificially avoid it (creating more and chronic contention). It is a case of looking beyond the mark. And the door mat syndrome inculcated by Church culture.

Good point, I didn't see your post before I asked the questions.

So you brought up the other thing they do s4711, they run away and avoid it. It's so aggrivating because they lob out this passive agressive behavior and when I try to talk to them about it I become the bad guy and the conversation is over. Seriously the most arrogant, narcissistic, and condescending group of people, for no other reason than they had a feeling that the church was true, now they know its true and everyone else is beneath them.

So what can we do?

Thank you all for bringing this up and pointing out the details.

I've been struggling with this with my TBM mother and siblings for a long time and I didn't know it was so common. QWE, you describe my family to a tee. We can be talking and I know that they are insulting me but the words, tone and body language are completely nice and pleasant. I, on the other hand am direct and don't beat around the bush.

I wonder how they picked this up?

Do you think it has something to do with church teachings or church culture?

I tend to be direct too. Thats why it took me so long to figure out what was going on with the passive-agressive "nasty words with a smile".

You have just described my TBM husband of more than 3 decades.

OMG, sometimes I don't know how I handle him. I didn't know a person who thinks he is so mighty and elect can be such a hateful piece of sh**, all the while smiling. My private nickname for him [NOT to his face] is Assh*le. Most of his family is the same way. He lives to hurt me, but it's OK because he is such a "nice guy". All his Mormon friends would tell anyone what a nice guy he is.

His nice is all an act.

I find this type of conversation typical with people who are used to being beaten down for the smallest decision.

"You can if you want."
Translation: I don't dare stick out my neck. Every time I do I get berated and I have not been taught to stick up for myself.

Not that you're the one who made him like this. Men are a whole lot more sensitive than people might believe. If he is ever treated like his opinion matters, he might start having one. If he has always been treated like he's a pain in the ass, he will probably never grow a pair. Once a guy is trained to act like this, they rarely break out of it.

Once again, not blaming you. His parents, teachers, church, etc., all taught him that his opinion will only get him ridiculed. But now that you know this, what are you going to do? If you stay with him be prepared for him to NEVER change.

T-Bone



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/27/2013 09:45PM by T-Bone.

You may have a point about his being beaten down. His TBM family and his ex did a good job of that long before he and I met. I've been trying like crazy for years to defer to his opinion, praise him, encourage him, and support him emotionally. It hasn't helped. Instead, he acts PA, stuffs his feelings until I prod him into divulging them, and then blows up in random angry rages over crazy things.

Everyone thinks he's a nice, kind, gentle man (except me and some of my kids, who've seen his meltdowns). He tells us to do whatever we want, gets silently angry and offended, and then witholds his feelings until he explodes. He says he is a nice, kind, caring man and that I am just overly sensitive and too emotional.

Good luck. Sincerely, good luck.

It takes a lot of work to learn how to be a normal, healthy adult after getting out of an abusive relationship.

T-Bone

I kind of thought the same thing only because that's how I respond to my husband so that I can avoid conflict. He's mean and verbally abusive. I avoid it with silence and distance.

I am definately not saying this is the case that op has anything to do with it, but if the hubby was raised keeping quiet to avoid conflict it becomes a habit to be silent even when unnecessary.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/28/2013 09:23AM by snuckafoodberry.

I read through the other Passive-Aggressive Mormons thread posted by nwguy.

I've never been Mormon, but reading through that made me feel so depressed. I saw so many of my wife's family members in the passive-aggressive spectrum, but even worse, I saw myself.

I've always felt like ever since I've moved to where I live now, surrounded and "suffocated" by Mormon family members, I've been nothing but a doormat. Meanwhile, I see my TBM in-laws publicly acting rude and snarky without a care.

Earlier today, my Jack Mormon wife (At least we don't go to church anymore since she won't go alone and I told her I couldn't take any more Mormon BS...so yay) wanted to vacuum in the house, and missed a spot. I just quickly went over it with the vacuum, but my wife thought that was an attack on her competence.

I don't even know why she acts like this now. She wasn't like this when we first met and fell in love.

Great link Crafty

I listened to it and it really helped me understand the situation.

This is so complicated. I agree with T-Bone. These people have so internalized the criticism, negative judgment, and hatred, they're climbing all over their own backs all the time. The vacuum example is classic. The wife misses a spot with the vacuum, her husband gets the spot. That she missed a spot makes her attack herself brutally for her incompetence, but she projects it onto her spouse, pretending that he's criticizing her.

It is so hard. People have got to learn that they can be wrong without their entire existence's being a mistake. They need to be able to make a mistake without BEING wrong. This is the consequence of believing in perfect Mr Jesus and Evil (with a capital E) Mr Stan. Since they're always trying to assign themselves to the Jesus camp, they're entirely disassociated from their flaws (which are of the devil!!). Yet, they're internally whipping themselves over it. That they've got this hidden devil-part is top secret, but must be eradicated at all cost! That your husband can't be wrong about anything, even a watermelon, so he's got to make sure someone's to blame coming or going, is very sad.

The other contributing factor, as T-Bone pointed out about growing a pair, is the utter panic at taking a risk. Again, can't be wrong so can't take a risk. The only thing to do, I think, is take responsibility for the situation and encourage the other person. So the watermelon. You know you'll take the fall whichever way it goes. If you buy the melon and it's bad, when he points it out, agree and reassure him that they'll be better in the future. You don't buy it, and you "forgot" (because you must hate him since you're such a bad person, and you knew all along he wanted it, but you're a meany who just wanted to keep it from him), assure him you know he deserves better food so you're saving the money for later in the season. Or just say, you're right, I made a mistake. Since you're damned if you do and damned if you don't anyway, let him know that being wrong's no biggy. Maybe then he can start happily being wrong too--since he's wrong anyway. His problem is that he can't bear to admit it.