Some folks here are asserting that mormonism is benighted and oppressive with respect to girls and women, but that the muslim belief system is enlightened and empowering with respect to the rights and lives of these same girls and women.

Am I paraphrasing correctly?

If I am, my response is thus: "Are you fucking kidding me?"

Oppression of girls and women is rampant, to greater or lesser degree, in EVERY country on the planet that can be identified as having a muslim majority population.

And the argument that oppression of women occurred before the founding of islam, therefore the islamic belief structure is without guile, is specious, at best. If barbaric practices existed before the formation of islam, and islam does nothing to quell or dispel these barbaric practices, then the islamic belief itself is barbaric, as it continues to foster and coddle said practices against women.

Despite GP's assertion to the contrary, refer to the rights (or lack thereof) of gays and lesbians in the western world. One could easily argue that this group of humans has been horribly oppressed throughout history. One could also argue that western society, as a whole, is finally waking to this barbarism, and is attempting to right this wrong. We are watching society evolve and improve with respect to how it treats a certain population. Granted the process seems glacially torpid, maddenly slow at times. But it is moving.

I'm just not seeing this societal evolution in islamic countries. In fact, for example, in egypt and libya and tunisia, an argument could be made that these societies have become less liberal and tolerant of minority groups and belief structures - after the so-called arab spring. They've actually devolved as a society and have become more barbaric, not less, in the past few years. Not a good indicator for their religion as a guiding mechanism for better.

Oppression of women (and many other groups and sub-groups) has existed in every corner of the globe throughout humankind's history. So? Many cultures have realized, or are realizing, just how damaging oppression of any group or sub-group is to that group, as well as to society at large. Many cultures are evolving and growing and improving.

Islamic cultures, mmm, not so much. Islamic societies foster and encourage the oppression of "others".

One could argue this point (and I'm sure many will), but the abolistionist movement arose from the christian sensibilities of its believers. (And being agnostic as I am, christianity is mostly silly mythology to me - I am no defender of.)

Show me anything that has sprung from the islamic creed that has improved the human condition, from a cultural or sociological vantage point. Anything.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 05/31/2013 01:22PM by schlock.

You're right.. No one could even begin to rationalize how Sharia law type Islam could be good for women unless they were indoctrinated in it. They'd simply say that I'm indoctrinated in Western traditions, so can't understand it. I think this is wrong. There are objective morals that dictate that every person should be able to reach their potential and have the freedom to thrive. These are universal.

Were far more tolerant of homosexuality than were western societies throughout most of history. Western societies finally seem to be moving in the right direction, however.

I bear no shame in acknowledging that far eastern cultures have been much more tolerant and progressive than has my culture with respect to gays and lesbians. I'm happy that we may finally be catching up, so to speak.

I wish islamic societies would be more willing to emulate other societies with respect to personal freedoms and human equality & dignity. There is no shame in behaving so.

But there is shame in the continued oppression and trampling of the rights of others - couched under religious codices.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_China

I have had occasion to meet and speak at length with quite a few Muslim men and women who were quite happy to answer my questions. In fact, I have quite enjoyed their encounters which have been very friendly and loving.

As it was explained to me when I asked about women and other differences, there are many different sects in the Muslim religion just as there are within Christianity. The women I know have been well educated and have careers like doctors, engineers, scientists, teachers, etc. and have been encouraged by their husbands, fathers, brothers, and other family.

They are not all the same.

AGREED

I am no defender of any religion or religion in general, but the majority of Muslims I've met are totally normal, like 99% of them.

participated socially, politically and economically in the life of their societies before the Taliban came into power.

http://www.tolonews.com/en/opinion/5462-a-history-of-women-in-afghanistan-then-and-now

I agree that it's all bad. Let's abolish every bit of it.

Muslims were taking baths, solving algebraic equations and studying chemistry while filthy, illiterate Europeans were living in squalor.

But Islam is the New York Jets of religions. The last time they did anything productive was a long time ago and all they do now is complain about what the other teams do.

Rose Park Ranger Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Muslims were taking baths, solving algebraic
> equations and studying chemistry while filthy,
> illiterate Europeans were living in squalor.
>
> But Islam is the New York Jets of religions. The
> last time they did anything productive was a long
> time ago and all they do now is complain about
> what the other teams do.

Yes.

We owe a huge debt to the Muslim cultures which preserved critical parts of Western ("our") civilization--like the writings of the ancient Greeks and Romans--through witch hunts and Inquisitions and brutal, destructive raids by peoples from far away.

I thank them for what they did back then, and also for that work which still goes on in certain parts of the world (like in certain parts of Africa, like Mali).

They preserved scientific information, mathematical discoveries, and vital information about anatomy and medicine for centuries...until the Western world became mature enough to deal with reality once again.

But so far as I can see, and being as objective as I am able to be, I think the things specifically Muslim have now outlived their usefulness to our planet. It's time for Islam to go the way of "our" former sincere beliefs in Zeus and Sekhmet.

It's funny, I noticed today a Muslim woman covered head to toe with only her face and hands actually showing. It was miserably hot and I was regretting my decision to wear jeans instead of shorts. I was sad for the Muslim woman and as I thought about why I was sad for her it came down to this... choice. If she had the choice would she chose to dress that way? Maybe she would say yes because it is her "outward expression of a covenant with God" (sound familiar?). But I wonder if she hadn't been taught that dressing that way was necessary for her salvation if she would still choose to dress that way. Oppression is taking away another's choices and any religion that arbitrarily makes certain choices good and others bad is oppressive.

Many Muslim women chose to wear the hijab as a political and cultural statement. They are not all coerced although some are. They are also not all terrorists,fanatics or sexist either

I went to school with one particular Muslim girl who wore her hijab faithfully, but she drank & was a chain smoker.

I think the key is fundamentalism. All fundamentalist sects seek to control women, their choices, their bodies, every aspect of their life.

The more fundamentalist the sect, the more control and discrimination is present.

There are many factors that regulate the quality of women's lives in any given society. Women fare better in representative democracies, for example. If 51% of the population can vote, it's not *as likely* that women will support legislation that restricts their own basic rights.

That's partly why in India, the world's largest democracy, which also has world's largest population Muslims, women fare better economically, socially, educationally, etc., than they do in places like Iran.

Bride burning?

Key word everyone keeps using here - "Religion". Therein lies the problem.. No need for the pot to call the kettle black. No NEED at all!!

Islam was radical feminism in 7th Century Arabia, but things have moved on a bit since then and it's no longer quite so cutting edge :-)

The culture that the religion exists in can act to make it more or less oppressive. In the UK, many Muslim women my age grew up in ambitious immigrant families and have become doctors, lawyers, politicans etc. They like to see their religion as one of peace and feminism, and long may that last.

Anon Brit Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Islam was radical feminism in 7th Century Arabia,
> but things have moved on a bit since then and it's
> no longer quite so cutting edge :-)
>


Yep - Mohammed received the shocking revelation from Allah that killing female babies and burying them in the yard is wrong.

Early Islam had significant scientific, mathematics and cultural superiority over the west. Beyond that, in the early 20th century the secularization of Turkey's government (which is a very important Islamic country) was brought about by a Muslim and supported by Muslims and while like all governments it was flawed, there was much good brought about it because of it as well.

Recently, I'm not sure that Islam has done much for human rights. Even regular, non-extreme Islam treats women as second class citizens and persecutes homosexuality. Islam does, however, promote education in a way that western religions don't do.