Yesterday, I waded into a FB fight with my friend's little sister.

She had posted about "Heterosexual Day" and how she deserved a parade and not gay people. She said, "why should gays get a parade to celebrate who they are sleeping with?"

I responded that every day was straight pride day. Every wedding, bridal shower, baby shower, prom, homecoming, church and school dance was a celebration of heterosexuality. I told her that she only saw those as normal because she was straight. The world looks very different when you are gay.

Her family came in, including her mother, and piled it on.

Normally, I would not have been so upset, but her brother is gay and in a relationship. I have known their family most of my life and very close to them growing up, especially her gay brother. I told her that I was disgusted with them and saw this as little more than a slap in the face of their brother.

We chatted and her main beef is that her brother and his bf travel and have money. She has 4 kids and struggles. Her other siblings also have lots of kids and struggle. One of them, who used to be a close friend, slept through college and got kicked out. He has 4 kids and no marketable skills.

Even though their brother has helped them out financially, even when they kick him publicly on FB, they all resent his financial stability. He is not that well off, but has enough money to go to Europe once in a while.

She seems to think that she is doing the world a favor having kids. I told her that no one wanted her to have kids but her. If she is unhappy with her kids, then she shouldn't have had so many. She was stunned, and then I remembered that Mormons are told to have kids.

My siblings all seem to enjoy their kids. Sure, they have problems, but so does everyone. Are TBMs unhappy being parents and therefor resentful of those of us without kids? They aren't doing me any favors by bringing kids they can't afford into the world.

I also told her that if my siblings ever trashed gays they way they do on FB, I would tear them a new one. My family is not 100% accepting of me being gay, but they have the good sense to keep their concerns private.

Why should Mormons get a parade to celebrate being born to their pioneer ancestors?

Seriously, though, she feels she is making tremendous sacrifices to do what God wants and resents those who are not making the same sacrifices and are seemingly blessed anyway. It's a grown-up version of "But I'm the good child who gets good grades ... why does my brother get a new bike when he doesn't study as hard as I do?" The problem is that she only THINKS she living the right lifestyle and the fact she isn't finding joy in her choices should be her first clue that what she thinks is the right way for her to live and what IS the right way to live are two different things.

I hadn't thought of the older brother from the Prodigal Son story. She probably does feel that she has sacrificed and look at how he is rewarded for living in sin. He should be saddled with 4 kids and not having fun with his buddies in Europe.

I did ask her why she didn't think Mother's Day was good enough. She didn't like that response.

CA girl Wrote:
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> Why should Mormons get a parade to celebrate being
> born to their pioneer ancestors?
>
> Seriously, though, she feels she is making
> tremendous sacrifices to do what God wants and
> resents those who are not making the same
> sacrifices and are seemingly blessed anyway. It's
> a grown-up version of "But I'm the good child who
> gets good grades ... why does my brother get a
> new bike when he doesn't study as hard as I do?"
> The problem is that she only THINKS she living the
> right lifestyle and the fact she isn't finding joy
> in her choices should be her first clue that what
> she thinks is the right way for her to live and
> what IS the right way to live are two different
> things.

^^ That is exactly it!! You couldn't say it better!

Having kids is very hard. I read some article recently that stated that a lot of mainstream society's problem with homosexuals is that they're jealous! Gays can have sex with no worries of pregnancy, they don't have to have kids (no societal pressure. Of course they can adopt or whatnot if they choose) and they get to spend their extra money on themselves/partner!

I think that has truth to it. I've also heard of mothers of 2-3 kids pressuring mothers of 1 to have more, just so they'll be miserable too. I am a mother of 1 and I can say first hand I've experienced jealousy and envy from mothers of 2 or more kids.

I had a difficult baby, he never slept and I didn't get to enjoy motherhood for a long time because of my exhaustion and his colic/allergies etc...it was so horrible that I made sure I didn't have another one. I knew I'd go crazy and not be a good mom.

I think too many people end up having the second kid so fast that they don't take the time to realize they might not be able to handle it.

I think people having kids that cannot afford them are the problems, not the solutions.

axeldc Wrote:
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> I think people having kids that cannot afford them
> are the problems, not the solutions.


Oh no, not at all. I don't think I did the world a favor by having a child, in fact there is a strong argument to be made that bringing kids into this world is hurting everyone.

And I totally agree that people that have kids they can't afford are the problem.

I'm all with you on gay issues. But I don't think hetrosexual couples with children dislike gays because they get to have sex and don't have to worry about having kids. I know when I was TBM that thinking never crossed my mind nor was it ever a subject of any conversation amongst my fellow bigoted TBM friends or family members. They don't like gays because they think that having sex with the same sex is weird. And they feel repelled by it. Throw in some biblical scriptures and you have a homophobe. Just my opinion.

elciz Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm all with you on gay issues. But I don't think
> hetrosexual couples with children dislike gays
> because they get to have sex and don't have to
> worry about having kids. I know when I was TBM
> that thinking never crossed my mind nor was it
> ever a subject of any conversation amongst my
> fellow bigoted TBM friends or family members.
> They don't like gays because they think that
> having sex with the same sex is weird. And they
> feel repelled by it. Throw in some biblical
> scriptures and you have a homophobe. Just my
> opinion.


Oh I know...I have never heard anyone express that opinion in real life either, but after reading it, I could see where some people could think that. I wish I could remember the name of the article or the author and provide a link.

So many great things in your post. I especially like your example of everyday being straight pride day. I am going to save that though for when my kids are older to help them be considerate of others.

Your question: are TBMs unhappy to be parents? I think a lot are. I was able to leave the church before having kids but the brain washing had not worn off. I love my kids and would have them again but I wish I had the mindset to wait and had more school/career.

I think a lot of them have kids and it limits them. When you can't do any thing because you already have three kids why not keep having them?

The church also romanticizes having kids. The reality does not measure up. It leaves them faking it and resenting it.

While the methodology was not scientific, Ann Landers once asked her readers to write in and respond to this question: "If you had it to do over again, would you still have children?"

An overwhelming 70 percent of respondents said they would NOT.

It's not just TBMs.

In mormonism (and many mormon families) there are simply no consequences. Or the consequences are never really acknowledged or appreciated.

I remember my parents scoffing at the lifetime cost of having children (whenever those studies would be discussed in the news). But looking at it throughout their lives, there were definitely financial consequences to their having children. Not the least of which is that they have limited funds for their retirement.

I love being a mom - but I went into parenthood with eyes wide open. As the oldest in my large family, I had a good idea of just what parenthood entails (including the cost). It was a choice that I made (with my husband) and I know I could have chosen "no". It makes a difference.

It's true that society needs children. But there is also a population problem (no one wants to talk about that either). So I support people making the decision to become parents.

I would imagine that many of them are unhappy as parents. They aren't told to think about it beforehand, not having children isn't presented as a viable option and we all know that people who don't really want kids shouldn't be having them. It is absolutely a permanent decision and shouldn't be made lightly.

I would also imagine that it is hard to parent when you haven't been given any real resources to do so. Obedience doesn't make someone a good leader, does it? It must be even harder with tithing and callings taking up so much parental time and money.

At the fast and testimony meeting I went to there were a bunch of parents sharing about their kids being baptised. One mom said she "finally" felt like she had been parenting correctly. I was a bit shocked at such a personal admission, she was walking around feeling like a failure all the time. I'm sure her kids feel it too.

I think that most Mormon parents are happy with their children.

But Mormonism does create a situation where people who might not necessarily want children are commanded to anyway. And I'm sure there are people who would have only had one or two, but felt pressured by the Morg to have more than they wanted. This does create a danger where parents could be resentful of the children they were coerced into having.

I remember one Mormon family I met on my mission who had no children. They were pretty well-off. They had a nice home, which they owned, two nice cars, which they owned, a nice home theater system, which they owned, etc. My comp and I were talking with another Mormon couple, who had many children and lived in government-owned housing, didn't own a car, and couldn't even afford food for all their spawn without government aid. The conversation somehow got to talking about the well-off couple. This couple piously brought up the fact that here this family had "all that money," and were "hording" it to themselves instead of having a large family like them!

Now, I don't know why the well-off couple didn't have any children (and I seriously doubt these people did either!). For all I knew, they could be trying and trying with no luck so far. Or maybe they just decided to wait until they are more well-established financially. Or maybe they just don't want children.

It struck me as odd how resentful these people were of their fellow Mormons' success simply based on the fact that they were bogged down with children and the other family wasn't.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/03/2013 12:07PM by nickname.

My mother had 7 kids. She resented everyone of us for messing up her life. Thanks-mom

My husbands mother is the same way. She bitched everyday of his childhood. Her line was.....If I didn't have you kids I could________.

She's 80, and still complains about having kids. She has a single daughter that lives with her and helps her, she moving soon because she can't take the abuse.

I hate it when parents act like their kids owe them something. Yes, love and gratitude are appreciated, but the only thing your kids owe you is being responsible adults.

Children don't ask to be born. You decide to have them.

I'm not a parent, so I always wonder why so many people seem to not like their own children. Is it the resentment over your lost life? It's not your kids' fault!

When I was single until 27, my married friends with up to 5 children each AT AGE 27--always bugged me about not finding a man yet. Then one of my high school friends (one with 5 kids) told my sister they were all envious of my freedom, job, car, clothes, traveling.

When I had my twins at age 28 (I didn't get a choice in having 2), my SIL said mothers don't tell you how difficult it is because they want you to be as miserable as they are.

I LOVE my kids and would do anything for them. The ONE reason I would have chosen not to have them is because I hate seeing them struggle. I hate to see them in pain. I don't think this world is such a wonderful place to be living and if I could have spared them the pain of their father leaving them, of the divorce my son went through, his anxiety and depression, my daughter's pain over being TBM and not married at age 27 (like her mother)--the list goes on and on of what I wish I could save them from.

They are the 2 most important people in the world to me.

I must add that my ex boohooed to me for a long time about if he didn't marry, he'd never have kids. It goes both ways. MANY gays want kids, too, and may not ever be able to. So--just like I did as a single 27 year old mormon, I filled in my time with other things like traveling.

And my ex got his kids and left them at age 10. Nowadays, he cries over the fact he left them at age 10. Although he had access to them any time he wanted, his boyfriend was more important at the time. He is still working on repairing his relationships with his children. He lost so much and he knows it now.

As for those heteros who have to have a pity party because gays have ONE DAY--they are ridiculous. I'm glad you called them on it.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/03/2013 12:43PM by cl2.

I think we live in a society that tells people that parenting is going to be the most fulfilling thing they could ever do, and some religious cultures like TSCC put extra pressure on people to have as many children as possible.

I don't plan to ever have children, and I have my reasons for that. But it's still frustrating and difficult when people tell me that I'll never know what real love is or never feel like I have a true purpose unless I have kids. Frankly, I've known too many shitty parents to ever believe that the whole "the first time I saw my baby I fell totally in love and completely re-prioritized my entire life" thing is universal. I don't think another person's life is worth taking that risk if, like me, you're not sure you'd be happy doing that.

Many are.

The main point to remember is that the "church" will not help people who wind up in a mess by following their "advise".

People overburdened with too many kids they never would have had in the first place are often resentful of the freedom, money, fun lives, and the firm bodies of those who chose not to follow the church.

We all make different decisions and live with the consequences.
What sux for "Obedient" members is that when they wake up and realize how ill-used the were by the morg, they cannot foist their kids on others.

Ya gotta feel bad for people who made such irreversible decisions in good faith.

I think it's like anything in Mormonism - if what they want you to do goes along with what makes you happy, then you are fine. But if you are doing something unnatural for you because you feel it's God's will, you are going to resent having your free agency manipulated away from you. I would have had kids no matter what because I wanted them. But I only had two because of health concerns - I would have had a couple more because of Mormonism if I'd been able. It would have been the WRONG decision for me personally. Two was the perfect number for me to have regardless of my religious beliefs. Two I can handle and give the necessary love and attention to. More would have been hard. Yet I know women for whom 4 is perfect and they can do a great job with all 4. My aunt never had any and that was the perfect choice for her.

The thing is that Mormonism doesn't allow much for each individual to decide what parenting means to them and how many kids works for them. The pressure is to have more. When you have more than you want - even if you don't want kids and you have just one - then resentments, jealousies etc. start kicking in. Especially if you have them before you are ready. The only thing I'd change is I wish we'd been more financially stable when we had kids so I could enjoy them more rather than worrying so much about how we were going to make ends meet. So combine financial pressure of having kids before you are ready, because the church encourages it and having more kids than you naturally want because the church encourages it and it's a cauldron to boil unhappiness in.

and I'm pretty sure we we're all "9-months-later" products of sex. She didn't seem to care for us at all when we were growing up. Being in Utah in the '60s made it easy for her to keep on reproducing.

Now she's old and alone, and playing the "I'm you're mom, and you're all bad for ignoring me" card.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/03/2013 01:50PM by jpt.

Just my two cents, but I don't think any parents are going to be happy when they have to parent in a way that doesn't suit them.
I was determined never to marry or have children in the Borg. I couldn't tolerate the idea of forcing people with different personalities and desires to conform to a single shape and be in misery, working as drones in the beehive.
Once I was out from under it all, I was more open to marriage and family, because it would be on our terms. There wasn't going to be some untrained bishop trying to counsel us on every detail of our lives, and there were no outside standards to live up to.
We've been married for 12 years and have 5 kids, are financially okay but not swimming in money, still in love and a very tight-knit family. All of this without the church hanging over our heads. Our life isn't very different from a TBM family at first glance. It something is very, very different.
I think what TBMs are really jealous of is the ability to decide on your life, on your own terms, without guilt or shame. I doubt any of it has to do with having kids or not having kids. It has everything to do with feeling it is necessary to hold back who you truly are in order to do what you're told you ought to do.

What she's saying is a slap in the face to gay parents. Their lives are just as hard as hers.

Other than her brother having a partner of 8 years, she seems to know precious little about gays and wants to know even less.

From living in "Happy Valley for 34 years now, it seems to me there are a few main reasons why TBMs are often unhappy parents:

* They have too many kids--more than they can afford or can handle emotionally.

* Women who never had a chance to finish their education because they married young and began having babies ASAP.

* Women who would prefer to be working part- or full-time in a professional career rather than being home. (And it's okay, dammit, if they want to be SAMs, too.)

* Between work, church, and family demands, people are run ragged around here.

I'm often amazed at the self-righteous indignation we get when people realize we "only had" two kids. This is most often from those who had large families--it strikes me as deep-seated envy.

Look up who is happiest:
Single men
Single women
Married men
Married women
Married men with young children
Married women with young children
Married men with teenagers
Married women with teenagers
Married parents with adult children
Divorced parents with adult children
Grandparents

Crazy$&!?:/

This whole thread is so great. After reading this I realized that I've heard the same sort of thing from my mother when she's angry - "I could have been selfish like you and pursued my own interests when I was younger but instead I sacrificed to have a family!" I mean, I do appreciate everything my parents have given me, but that doesn't mean I'm not allowed to form my own opinions now that I'm an adult. If you have children with "strings attached" (I raised you and therefore you have to be Mormon!) you're likely to make things miserable for both yourself and your child.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/03/2013 11:23PM by glibberish.

I wouldn't say they're unhappy being parents. But I do think they're sometimes jealous deep down of what non-mormons are able to do with their lives.

This doesn't just apply to those with children and doesn't just apply with money and travelling to Europe. I was a mormon once, and I felt so trapped. You're constantly doing things that you don't want to do, because you feel forced to do it.

I think one of the things that helps mormons be okay with not allowing to do anything they want is that there's punishments connected to breaking certain commandments (e.g. health risks, etc.), which they often use as an excuse.

But when those "punishments" are taken away, through advances in science, politics, or what-not, they seem to not like it. I do think that's down to jealously. They want to see all those people out there living free and having fun getting punished for breaking the commandments (e.g. having no money, getting a disease, etc.). Or at least they live in the hope that will happen later on in those people's lives.

Since "punishments" for breaking the commandments are getting constantly removed these days (e.g. contraception making unwanted pregnancies much rarer, homosexuality becoming more accepted, alcohol isn't as harmful as previously though, etc.) it's upsetting to some mormons that people can break the commandments with much less backlash now.

That's what I think anyway, based off many discussions over the years in Sunday School, Elders Quorum, etc. These are the kinds of themes come up a lot. Many mormons want people breaking the commandments to be punished, and when it doesn't happen, they don't like it.

So I think those mormons you were talking to on Facebook, they're jealous of that gay guy, getting more accepted by society, travelling the world, lots of money. What they really want is to see him being poor, depressed, suffering from an STD, etc. That's what they want, since it validates their religion, and makes their lack of freedom justified.

I only know 1 TBM couple who are happy to be parents. That's because it took them 13 years to have a baby because of fertility problems. I was actually angry with them for not adopting. They are super TBM, & they wouldn't have been as successful career wise as they are if they hadn't of run into said problems, because they would have been bogged down with kids.