I have a 6 year old boy who qualifies for Tiger scouts this fall since he'll be starting 1st grade. The tiger stuff participation is still hit or miss where I live, but since it's mormonville, nearly every boy at 8 starts scouts if they haven't already.

I was using the ban on gay scouts as my biggest reason for not wanting my kid to participate, but that's not there anymore. Aside from "he doesn't want to (which is legit, he doesn't)," what are good arguments against Mormon-scouting?

Here are some good reasons:

1. Mormon scout leaders are not trained like non-Mormon scout leaders. They are "called" to do the job and they will accept their calling whether they want to do it or not. Once in, they go to Mormon scout leader training held at Mormon chapels. They are rarely as committed or as well-trained as non-Mo leaders.

2. At least in Utah, these leaders tend to take their scouts on risky activities and outings, sometimes in dangerous weather conditions or without proper prep or supplies. Google the incidences of accidents/fatalities for Scout trips in Utah and you'll see for yourself. Accidents and deaths happen every year.

3. Both the leaders and the boys in the pack often ostracize, shame, shun, and pressure any non-Mo boys or inactives. I've seen it happen to my kids and others.

4. Bizarre stuff can happen. TBM neighbor told me several years ago that her TBM, Eagle-scout son quit after witnessing his pack members torture and kill a rabbit while laughing about it -- then they made fun of him because he was horrified at their actions. I won't repeat gruesome details, but it was stomach-turning.

5. Some leaders molest their scouts. One of these former leaders lives down the street from me and he is still a church member in good standing, even after he confessed to molesting dozens of boys. A good friend of mine was raped by his leader on a camping trip when he was 12. The Mormon church will protect these men, discredit the victim, and deny the abuse ever happened or claim it was the boy's fault. There's no accountability.

There are tons of other options. I grew up with scouting and loved it, but it's not for everyone.

What other things does your son enjoy? There's martial arts, sports, music, art...

My DD is 11 now and we have zeroed in on competitive volleyball - it's the one thing she really loves. I started her at age 4 in dance and also have done gymnastics, t-ball, and soccer. She danced for 5 years until her enthusiasm waned. I only wanted to expose her to a variety of activities hoping she would find something that fits her and she can get really involved with.

Well, first of all, Mormonism hijacks the scouting program to push THEIR aims-not scoutings.

Secondly, although scouting has been forced to change it stance on gays, it has not changed it position on religion.

Scouting requires forced participation, belief, and worship of a god, which is if course why LDS likes it so much.

Since LDS Inc is so incorporated with scouting, and has attached it to their young mens programs, scouting should be an example. Scouting requires a background check on all persons interacting with young people, LDS Inc does not.

I don't want you to think I'm being snarky with this reply, but if your son doesn't want to be in scouts, why do you need another reason? What difference does it make if some starched up priesthood boners at the local stake center are "concerned" that your son isn't involved in scouting? If he doesn't want to be involved, and you support his decision, that's all the reason that is needed.

as a scout leader, I would not want someone in my troop who did not want to be there.

why punish us?

My thoughts exactly.

Learnt long ago it is okay to say no and you don't have to give a reason. ( it drives people mad when you don't give a reason as we are conditioned to the "No, because....." answer)

I think it would be okay for your son to join Tiger Scouts, even in mormonville. Weighing the advantages vs the cons, your son will be able to participate in group learning, fun activities, peer relationships, etc. Even at that young age, it's good for him to get as much as he can.

I agree with Flybynight for an LDS scout troop that would begin at age 11 (i.e. exception 3 and 4). Sounds like your elementary school though, even though headed by some mormons, is still separate from the church.

DH was called to be the scout leader at one time. He actually liked it, but he said no one helped, his assistant didn't do anything and it was a lot of work to prepare the activities and lessons. He said he felt bad for the kids because it was obvious no one took it seriously and the kids were getting shafted. DH did a wonderful job, but it took up a lot of his time. (This was tigers)

Anyway, that would be my reason. Some guy whose already working a full time job and has church too, will have to find time to squeeze in scouts as his calling and he'll do a crappy job.

The college admissions officer in me is going to come out and play for a minute - if your son doesn't want to be involved in scouts (and you don't want him to be involved in the LSD-sponsored troops in your area), that's no problem. However, I would definitely encourage you to help him find an activity that he is passionate about to start getting involved in. It will look really impressive on a college application, or a job interview, if your son is able to say "yeah, I got involved with (insert name of activity here) back when I was really young, and I've stuck with it ever since." I've noticed that kids who are involved with things like music, 4H, scouting, martial arts, etc. seem to know how to budget their time a bit better once they hit high school/college.

First, I'll second everything that flybynight stated. I used to be very big into scouts and the Mormon troops not having trained leaders who actually volunteer (not assigned) makes a big difference. The horror stories where leaders went on trips they weren't prepared for should be more than enough to not choose other activities run by professionals.

Also, consider that while the ban on gay scouts have been lifted, the ban on gay scout leaders has not. The Scouting program still teaches bigotry. Imagine a young boy hitting his teenaged years and discovering that he's gay and a scout. He can't be a leader in a program that was a big part of his life... In some troops he may be bullied because being gay, while you can now be a scout, is far from acceptable in the program.

And as sparty said, if your son doesn't want to be in scouts, why force him? There are tons of other activities that he may be interested in that are often better run, don't teach bigotry and that he would have ample opportunity for socialization.

Really its going to vary wildly based on the leaders. First, the leaders may not want to be there and may be bad with kids or they may love it and be great with kids.

Personally, I think cub scouts is a good program despite some warts. If the den leader is excellent he will have a great experience if not he won't. Likewise the den leader may vary widely on how religious they choose to make it. I'm personally of the mind that I kid being exposed to a little Mormon thinking isn't going to hurt him as long as you keep an open dialog and discuss it.

In the end if you son isn't interested in it that seems like the most important thing. If you do decide to let him be involved ensure that they always, always enforce to deep leadership. The scouting program stresses this very strongly in the training but sometimes leaders will break this rule anyway. Make sure that the leaders know you expect them to follow this and that your son knows to report it to you if this is ever broken.

The other argument against scouts is that they actively discriminate against gays and atheists - neither can be leaders so do you really want to have your son associated with an organization that is publicly and actively discriminatory based on beliefs?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/17/2013 11:41AM by The Oncoming Storm - bc.

I think Cub Scouts is a great program. If you can get to a non-LDS pack, or even better, a school-sponsored one, then I would have no problem.

I know they are bigots, but I loved cub scouts. When he gets to be 12 and the gay thing is more of an issue, I'd rethink it, but by then they may have gotten rid of their antigay issues all together.

I probably would have enjoyed scouts a lot more if I'd gone non-LDS. I tried to join a UU troop and my mom freaked out.

My scouting experience was good. But then our scoutmaster was my best friend's dad, a committed, knowledgeable leader (golden bear), a discipline kind of guy that didn't put up with kid's screwing around. He taught us well, but later on when he was released, we got others that weren't as good. Some were not too bad, but we had this guy who wanted to be the nice guy, a bit too friendly - come to find out he later molested two kids in the ward. So, you never know.

For safety reasons, I wouldn't have my kids participate in anything I'm also not willing to be highly involved in. This is to protect my kids' on many different levels.

We've done both mo and non-mo scouts and the co-ed venturing program. Yep, I do like to hike. In comparison, the mo scouting program is a joke.

Let your child find his passion and spend your time and energy there.

One more thought - Women are allowed to participate in and hold positions in non-mo boy scouts troops. In LDS troops women are NOT allowed in scouting beyond cub scouts.

rainwriter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
Aside from "he doesn't
> want to (which is legit, he doesn't)," what are
> good arguments against Mormon-scouting?



No offense intended, but why do you NEED anything more than that?

This is a voluntary organization, made up of volunteers. My son doesn't want to volunteer. Kind of like he doesn't play baseball, he doesn't take ice skating lessons, he isn't learning to play the cello, he doesn't eat tomato's, and we don't practice speaking Arabic at home. Those things may or may not be good for a child's development. We could do them if we wanted, but HE DOESN'T so we DON'T.

I feel no reason to qualify your reasons for your LDS friends/family. In my world view it doesn't need an explanation, the answer is simply, "No thank you."

I don't think a reason beyond "he doesn't want to" is really necessary. Anyone who tries to press you at that point should be greeted with an incredulous stare.

I haven't seen the word MISSION.

We are told that the scouting program is designed to KEEP the boys ACTIVE AND IN the LDS system and to open the pathway to convert non-member boys.

Our Stake Presidency and Young Men's Presidency actively state that the scouting program is to prepare the young men for full-time missions. My closest friend in charge of the 14-15 year olds reiterated this position several times - and he gave big bucks to California's Prop. 8 campaign to fight marriage equality. The Stake President gave the largest contribution of anyone in the stake boundaries. How do I know? I did a search on http://www.eightmaps.com/

Now our local stake and ward priesthood leaders are openly stating and encouraging the young men to go straight from scouting to a full-time mission when they must leave scouting at 18 years of age and are now eligible for full-time missions. And you don't think that brainwashing isn't going to start while they are tiny tots?

The LDS church uses the SPORTY activity part of scouting and intertwines it with the RELIGIOUS part of the Aaronic Priesthood indoctrination theology. Boys go off to father and son outings. They go off to summer camps with priesthood leaders who are also scout leaders. They use Mormon talk and techniques of coercion and doctrine mingled with scouting. They have their overnight activities that are Aaronic priesthood related with scouting activities. And then while gone from mom and dad they have group think testimony meetings in the wilderness.

The LDS have their agenda with scouting.

Sneaky? I think not - it's deliberate!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/17/2013 12:19PM by jiminycricket.

Your son's not wanting to be involved with scouting along with your decision not to encourage him to decide otherwise is reason enough for him not to be in scouts. You are the boys parents and have the responsibility for his welfare. You have the complete right to decide what your son will or won't be involved with.

My own scouting horror story: I have a son who had (has, although he is doing really well right now as an adult) behavior problems. His birth mother was an addict and we are convinced that she was using something while she was pregnant. My son has been diagnosed with a fetal brain injury because of it. This is something like fetal alcohol syndrome but not as severe. Anyway, the scout leaders of our ward encouraged us to allow he and his brother (also adopted but from different birth parents) who was a year older to go to summer camp. We expressed our concerns because of our son's behavior which is difficult to handle in the best of circumstances. My son was on a regimen of medication which did help but he still had periods of difficulty when his meds began to ware off. But we were reassured that summer camp with the scouts would be a wonderful experience for both my sons. So, we relented. I also volunteered be an adult supervisor for a couple nights just so I could check up on my kids.

The nights I spent with the scouts were mid-week. It was the best I could do with my work schedule. Everything seemed to be going OK. My son said he was getting his medications OK, and he seemed to be the kid I knew him to be. He could be terribly annoying and it apparently bothered some of the other kids worse than I was able to detect. When my kids came home from camp, everything seemed to be fine. They were both excited to be home and they both had plenty of stories to tell. But one story which came out somewhat reluctantly was more than alarming. By the end of the week, enough kids were so terribly annoyed by my one son that they decided he should be taught a lesson. This was apparently at the suggestion of one of the scout leaders who said they would teach annoying scout a lesson by taking them out into the woods. But these scouts decided instead that they would hang my son from the latrine - just for a little while - just to teach him a lesson. The problem was that one of the scouts leading this "activity" knew how to tie a hangman's noose but didn't realize the purpose of the oversized knot. My poor son was clueless and willingly put his head through the noose. His brother and another kid (who happened to be a non-member) prevented the bucket they had my son standing on from being kicked out from under him, and these two boys took my son down from the noose without being hanged.

My wife asked our boys where the adults were while all this was happening. They had decided to leave the all the scouts unsupervised while they went to retrieve the cars. We did receive apologies from the ringleaders from among the boys and sort of an apology from the scout leaders. Needless to say, this was the end of my son's scouting experiences and my youngest son was never involved.

My own scouting experience was different but I wasn't as interested in being a scout as my father was eager for my scouting experience. Your experience would be different - it could be better or it could be worse.

Avid Scouter here - LDS doesn't do Tigers (because they aren't the magical age of 8 yet). So if you're getting him into a Tiger group, odds are it's a "community" group and probably run better than an LDS one is.

That said, what everyone else says is right. Don't make him do it unless he wants to.

Since it is a Mormon scout troop that is enough reason.
NO NO NO

The reasons listed above say it all...the TSCC protects abusive scout leaders, puts in uninterested scout masters, does NOT follow scout prodedures in earning badges and running the troops,

Their outings are not supervised enough and they engage in risky adventures without proper safety equipment or knowlege of the terrain or task.

I had a troop that wanted to take their boys up a GLACIER for fun ...the leaders were so stupid they didn't know it was a permanent snow field without cravases....but you can slip and fall to your death on a permanent snow field..

The Mormon scouts tend to NOT participate in Scout o Rammas and they are all too often the LEAST prepared scouts with the worst equipment with the boys who haven't a clue as to how to set up camp, cook safely over a fire, and use good hygene....

My son's Mormon troop had kids that would nearly pee on the tent when they had to go in the middle of the night.
My son had his own tent by himself...no roommates to pee on it thank goodness!

In our little Mormon town a lot of the kids smoked their first weed at a scout outting while the local scout leader, the sheriff, snored in his tent!

If it was a scout troop run by Elks, a Protestant Church, a NON Mormon school...he'd have a good program. As it is...you'll have to fill in the gaps for him.

Thank you for the input. I appreciate it.

Just to clarify, I agree that there should be no need for more of an answer than "he doesn't want to." But, inside of the Mormon bubble, it's almost unfathomable for a kid to _not_ want to do scouts. It's trumped up and talked up and made to be the end-all awesomeness. Rejecting scouts is like rejecting the church since the church supports scouts. Not wanting to participate isn't generally seen as enough of a reason to not do it in that mentality, just like how it's expected that kids go to church whether they want to or not.

I had the opposite problem. My Tiger age son wanted to be in scouts. I went to the orientation and find out they are recruiting for new leaders. We didn't sign up. I decided the following about 4 years ago:

1. having 5 children, I can do every scouting type activity with my own children without all the rules. Like having boys and girls on camp outs, shooting guns, using knives, swimming, etc.

2. I hate the idea of uniforms and conformity.

3. With the strong LDS support, I didn't want to be associated with it and the, at the time policies, on Gays, etc. We are not in mormon country, but the LDS are active in scouting and I did not want to be bumping into all the LDS members I am desperately trying to avoid.

4. Scouts seems to be a magnet for child molesters.

5. I didn't feel safe letting him go on trips with out me and I knew I couldn't go on everything.

6. If you get started in scouts, the social pressure to continue until eagle scout and then become an adult leader is high.

I do get my son scout books and merit badge book on things he is interested in, but we have avoided joining any group so far.

For your situation there will always be the social pressure that you cannot escape. You will likely need to be blunt and come across as not wanting to talk about it for people to leave you alone.

You could talk to the bishop and ask him to tell the leaders to lay off your son for personal reasons. Just mention that you are not comfortable with your son being in a group that is a hot topic of national debate an you would rather sit it out until the scouts have resolved all of their social issues.

The ban isn't over. The BSA still continues to discriminate against gay adults.

The BSA doesn't allow atheists to join. They are still actively discriminating.

You are a good father to care more about your son's happiness than to care what other people think. You don't need to give any reasons at all!

Yet, your little boy is too little to go against authority figures and say "no." You can use this opportunity to teach him that he does not have to to everything an adult tells him to do. His questioning of authority will help him if he is approached by a child molester or other predator.

While your son is still learning, it is up to YOU to give him the example. Look the Mormons in the eye and tell them, "My son will not be participating the the scouting program because I forbid it. I'm his father, and I say he can't go."

When we were TBM, I had to so this several times, when Mormon priesthood leaders would come into our house, to drag my children to various activities and meetings. My children had already said "no" to them at church, "no" on several phone calls. Mormons will not take "no" for an answer. I yelled at the men, "I am their mother, and head of this household, and I forbid my sons to go with you! Please leave."

The gratitude and respect from your little boy will be worth any embarrassment, shunning, or harassment the Mormons could give you.

"NO"

Mormons: Why?

You: "Because I'm his father, and I forbid it."

Mormons: Why do you forbid it? What do you have against Scouts?

You: "I don't want him to go. That's all I have to say on the matter."

Mormons: Please, we need you, bla-bla"

You: "I'm his father, and you are NOT to bother my son about this."

You have to be tough, and say "no" about 30 times. If you start to give "reasons", it will open you up to further arguing and manipulating from the Mormons. Never explain.