Why do a lot of people on this board accuse others of trolling if they're having misgivings about having left/feeling any sort of nostalgia or fondness towards the "church?" I've noticed this happening several times, and it's very troubling to me. I think a major part of transition is admitting that some, or many, people DO miss it--if they didn't, it wouldn't be a cult, it would just be some crazy group of people that everyone avoided. Are people insecure? Are they so angry at the church (which is sometimes how I feel, and in many instances I feel it's justified) that they don't like hearing anything positive about it?

Obviously nothing is "really" positive about the church because it's all fabricated to begin with. But acknowledging the parts we miss about it or what drew us in or what we still think about is a major part of recognizing why we stayed for so long, and why we converted or didn't immediately leave upon turning 18. It's sometimes troublesome to me that so many people accuse others of trolling or not being sincere when they post anything in that vein. Why do you think this happens?

I think it's OK if you acknowledge the things you miss - many of us miss certain aspects of Mormonism. When someone starts defending the church or try to diminish the damage the cult has done to other people that we start to suspect it's a troll.

For example, I had a pretty good run in Mormonism and left primarily because I figured out they were lying to me. And after I left, lying about me. That seemed contrary to the teachings of the Savior I follow. But while I do have stories, they aren't nearly as heartbreaking or stressful as what some here can recount. If I were to discount their feeling simply because I didn't experience anything like that in Mormonism I'd look like a troll - or at least an insensitive jerk. And I feel free to talk about the things I miss but even the good aspects don't make it a good system. It's a damaging way to live and even though I miss my friends, seeing how they turned on me made me realize they never really were my friends. So it's OK to miss things, as long as it doesn't seem like you are defending the indefensible.

We've all been annoyed, harassed, tormented and mistreated (depending on the individual) by Mormons for too long. Here is where we draw a line in the sand and say "no more." Sometimes we draw a little hastily but surely you can understand why.

I was going to say something like this the other day before I got busy fixing my house.

I am socially shy until I get to know someone, so TSCC provided me with a built-in social network and "automatic" friends, if you will.

What it took from me was a crap-tonne of money, 2 years of my life (consecutively), close to 3 more years (if you add up the meetings, HT, activities, etc.), ability to think for myself, freedom from certain things, and a bunch of other little things.

Unlike a lot of people on this board, I didn't experience the bad side of TSCC as much. I was/am BIC from pioneer stock on both sides, white, male, and straight, and my parents were some of the more 'prominent' members of the ward. It didn't break up my family (so far), and so I am not as 'bitter' as others.

However, I HAVE seen others suffer greatly because of it and it makes me angry every time I read another horrific story about the crap it pulls to break up marriages and discriminate. I can understand the bitterness. But I can see how others who came from similar backgrounds as I did may not understand it.

I don't think you framed it correctly. It isn't that participants on RFM cannot stand to hear anything good about the church. You have overgeneralized.

Many of us share things we liked about the church. There is no flaming for that. It's an honest admission.

But this is a recovery board. It's natural during recovery to look for our identity. We were melded and enmeshed into a codependent and cult like group (the LDS church) for decades. We were defined in the church by our level of blind obedience, and blind faith. Hi praise and verbal badges of honor were handed out over the pulpit to those who ignored facts, reason and evidence. Dishonestly defending the church's leaders and past history were an honorable pursuit.

One does not recover from being used like that by church leaders in a day, a month, or even a year. I've been working on it for 11 years.

One more thing. Mormonism teaches its members that "contention" is of the devil (3rd Nephi 11). Recovering Mormons know better. They know that dissent, honest and skeptical questions, and refusing to follow blindly are the real virtues.

So when someone shares something they really miss about the church (usually the instant and ever present friendships, or the music, or the past activities), there may be some dissent from those who had a hard time with those same activities. I liked being a bishop and a CES guy for most of the time I was. But others detest CES pricks and heavy handed PH holders. I don't resent their remarks. I learn from them. There are two sides at least, to every issue. I've learned so much from those who have suffered so much.

Be grateful for the various points of view. Understand that we are all coming from different places. You don't have to agree with everything - I sure don't. But it doesn't hurt to understand that some are still smarting from the pain. The church is a lot of things, among them an 800 pound gorilla disguised as a kindly old man in a black suit. It has caused a ton of heartache and even suicides. Some of those on the RFM boards are very very close to those painful episodes.

Yes, I totally agree with most of this, except that my point IS (although I might have made it poorly) exactly that--that part of the pain is recognizing that they did suck you in, and that part of your brain still misses parts of it. At least for me, that's part of the pain of recovery--accepting that yes, I do miss it, and I do still wish it really was all the things it promised to be, and the letdown was what hurt the most. Yet many times when I see someone post something along those lines, they're treated as a pariah and told that they're a troll, as if no one could possibly miss anything about it. I understand why some people think others are crazy for missing it, and hearing that is always helpful because it does remind me how insane the church really is, but for me it's part of the power of cult/magical thinking, and it's important to talk about how they can get inside brains and control people's feelings and lives like that. It's part of recovery, and sometimes those parts are glossed over and it's assumed that everyone's already onto the next stage.

I think if you looked at most posters, they would understand that part of missing and longing.

However, even those same posters would probably urge you to consider another side or something that might move you past that "longing" phase.

I see. You know that the brainwashing etc. was for real, but you irrationally find yourself missing the "ideal"; how it was portrayed, and how you/me believed it should be. But it appears to you that those who express this in honest terms are criticized?

I bet you are right.

In addition to that however, it has taken me forever to learn that I can't be too thin-skinned. As a Mormon I was enmeshed to every one of my ideas, my opinions, and churchy points of view. When someone disagreed with me I took it personally. I believe that is one of the things I have worked on the most while participating in the various forums, including RFM.

I try not to worry all that much if someone takes offense at something I write. They have a right to their opinion.

I also agree that sometimes the level of criticism makes me wince a little - as you pointed out. It can be so mean spirited. But, participating on this board, with its warts and all, is like that.

It reminds me of my university experience (as a student, teacher, and exempt professional). Academic debate can be a rough and tumble activity. But being determined to learn as much as you can from the experience is a great attitude to take into any debate.

Yes. I try to take the approach, when I have feelings I don't like, of asking myself why I feel that way, because so much of emotion is manipulated by our conditioning, our circumstances, and, if you were involved in a cult--brainwashing. And part of that is admitting those feelings and then teasing them out. Yet when I've tried to do that here, or more often when I see others express similar things or struggle with their emotions re: the church, it's almost immediately shut down as "trolling" or joked about as if no one could legitimately feel anything for the church or the people in it, despite the fact that practically every person here did at some point or it would have no hold over anyone at any point in time. Obviously the church is pure idiocy. Obviously it's made up of lies. So why is it so attractive to a sizable number of people? What in our psyches becomes so attached to it? Especially for converts and people who willingly chose to stay long after they were forced to?

Obviously the people on this forum aren't here to cater to my or anyone else's feelings or opinions, but I do think it's something that isn't addressed nearly often enough here, because people are jumped on so quickly and the criticism can be so harsh and the suspicion so strong.

I don't think people mind if a difference of opinion or experience is expressed. I think the negative reaction happens when that difference is perceived as dismissive.

Keep in mind that there is an inherent sampling bias present on the board. I have a number of exmo friends who don't have any use for the board, generally because they have moved on. While there are some on here who consider themselves to have moved on, I think that this board is a coping mechanism for many, and those who haven't moved on will respond in the way you have mentioned.

In general I'd think forums like this attract those most hurt by TSCC, and as such they have a certain perspective that doesn't necessarily jive as well with a more balanced view.

WHen they first post here, many people are hearing for the first time "evil speaking against the Lord's anointed." Like a teenager with his first night of drinking, they may overdo it because they are not used to drinking responsibly.

It may be very important for a person ranting over the treatment they received or saw from the LDS church. They will receive validation here whereas in their wards, they would have been escorted from the building.

The purpose of this board is to provide that kind of support plus the kind that leads one forward past the (justified) anger to a new life freely chosen and free of coercion.

It is not surprising that those here to have a safe place to evil speak might not enjoy the happy memories, not because they're not valid, but because they were forced upon them.

Picture yourself forced to eat only leaves for years because you were living on a desert island and were told that other food was dangerous and to stay away from it. Finally you are free and you get served a salad. You might overturn the table and demand a hamburger.

We acknowledge that salads are wonderful, but this is a hamburger joint.


Anagrammy

I do see posts about how every person on RfM hates with extreme bitterness every thing about every mormon and every thing about the morg. Nope, I've never seen the widespread hatred that so many new posters accuse.

Remembering the community and activities, the music, and the sense of working for good and doing enjoyable callings is as much a part of RfM as recovering from the extreme control and regimentation.

As a retired cop, I have some academic training, and a fair bit of field experience, in dealing with abusive relationships. I contend that belonging to -- and separating away from -- a cult has dynamics very similar to being in an abusive relationship.

The abuser wants to control the victim, and will use emotional, spiritual, financial, social, and other means to maintain control. Sometimes it is is subtle, like determining friends and social activities; sometimes it is overt, like controlling the finances. And sometimes it can be brutal, including physical abuse. There will be individual variations, sure, but the pattern is similar: as long as the victim is safely compliant, the abuser is kind and gentle. When the victim starts getting independent, then the abuser gets rough.

Victims remain strangely loyal to their abusers, and put up with it to dangerous, even tragic, degrees. They tend to maintain a mythic reverence for him, defending him from outsiders (like the police) declaring that "he really means well" and "you don't understand him like I do," "I can change him," "It's my fault--I didn't measure up," etc. The victim exagerates in her thinking the good times, and will minimize, rationalize, and even dismiss the harm she has suffered. The victim often has a tragic (pathological, even) loyalty and bonding to the abuser.

She may not like what she suffers, but her relationship is a kind of known commodity. It is familiar territory with "rules" that she is familiar and comfortable with. She fears venturing into the unknown. When forced to separate out (say, by the abuser's incarceration) she may feel lost and abandoned, and will either maintain the relationship or seek out another abuser. After all, it's what she knows best.

See the connections? Leaving an abusive relationship and exiting a cult both require courage, but also guidance and support.

That's an excellent analogy!

In my long life, I've "got over" a lot of stuff. Some of it took longer than others. It happens in our time line, not because someone is telling us to "get over it."

In my case, getting on with my life, finding a way to live with inner peace and contentment required that I let the negativity and angst of the past go. I don't live there anymore.

I'm a convert with several belief systems in my past. I've dealt with all of them, little by little. At this point,I have no need for any of them other than keeping the happy memories which is always associated with people, mostly those that are my close friends and loved ones.

Since my husband died in January, I've been propelled into remembering a lot of memories. My rule of thumb is always: let go of those that do not serve me, about anything,or anyone, and focus my memory on those things and people that bring me the greatest joy and happiness-- along with a lot of humor, of course.:-) It's my experience that humor is a great equalizer!

I have very supportive memories of my experiences with the LDS community, the fun, the activities, the music, particularly because I am a musician, and dozens of other experiences.

I went through some very difficult experiences in my life over the expanse of my long life: some at home, some at church, some at work, some at school, etc. It was: "The Good, The Bad, The Ugly" and it all contributed to who I am today.

Nobody walks out of a lifetime of a daily reinforced belief system like walking into another room. It takes time to give ourselves permission to allow ourselves to evolve. It's often scary, new, with unexpected results.

I have taken the position that I do not have to be a victim, or to engage in thinking that is self sabotage. That is how I do it to keep a level of peace of mind, and real joy in my life.

We all do it our way. There is no manual, no rule book.

Personally, I defend reason. There has been a time or two when this has meant defending TSCC to some extent - and I certainly hope no one thought of me as a troll. But if someone is making truly outrageous claims about some horrible thing the church is supposedly responsible for, I'll call bullshit.