Continuing from the original (2) thread(s):

OP, all the heady feelings that you attach to thoughts of being with the potential mistress could come back into play with the wife you profess to love so dearly.

But that would require some work.

I'm no stranger to marital woes including 'falling out of love', boredom, stagnation, feeling unfulfilled, even intense attraction to an alternative. Those issues were addressed honestly for what they were with a willingness to act with love (not just talk the talk), and my marriage has been rekindled several times over in our 22 years together.

It's impossible to sustain the kind of intense excitement and attraction that you describe for your co-worker. Right now, she's just an exciting, new shiny thing. It won't last. Every relationship will fall into schedules, routines and ruts both comfortable and incredibly frustrating, even numbing at times. As many of us know/have experienced, even great marriages involve a good deal of truly tedious day to day elements.

There are times I can quickly tire of some of my husband's idiosyncrasies, which are in no way harmful or meant to irritate me. When he starts to get on my nerves through no real fault of his own, I step up efforts to remind myself of his many positives. I start by complimenting him on things I've always loved whether it's his sense of humor, body or even one body part (doesn't have to be sexual - he has fantastic blue eyes), the way he looks in that shirt, his incredible persistence and optimism, his creativity and intelligence (which comes out of him in very different ways such traits manifest in me), his energy (he's an extrovert, I'm introvert). Etc. Then I start acting, doing other things he loves receiving: a favorite gourmet meal, a long backrub, taking care of a call or chore or something I know he hates doing. All without expectation of reciprocity. After all, I *say* I'm such a believer in showing unconditional love. If I'm an idealist, I might as well act like one some of the time. Acting lovingly is the engine that drives loving feelings.

There have been memorable times in our marriage when - out of the blue - he's stepped up his 'game' as well, in ways that perplexed me but delighted me. It's our dance, and the longer we're together the more skilled and creative we get at it.

Shortly before we celebrated our 20th anniversary, we met someone who swore we were behaving like newlyweds - he didn't believe we'd been married 20 years. We had the moves like Jagger ;-) Because we'd once again done the work that rekindled the passion we've always had for each other (underneath the routines, the schedules, the ruts, the familiarity). Here's the best part: that passion is amplified to about a thousand times the wattage of that generated by an affair with someone new and shiny because we *know* each other so damned well. As a result we're definitely not uneasily, anxiously second guessing the unknown: "why did he say that?" "maybe that's just the way she is in the mornings." "what can I do to make her feel special?" "I can't believe he likes/wants (fill in blank)." Those are already things about each other we know very well. Throw fresh passion into that and the excitement, fulfillment and 'newness' of falling in love all over again blows the excitement of an affair right out of the water: it's precisely the definition of having your cake and eating it too.

Anyone who's thinking that they're justified in having an affair in order to 'fix' something missing in their otherwise 'happily' married life or to fulfill some deeply unmet need is in for some real disappointment, both in their relationships and in life, as well as for some real, long-lasting pain - for themselves and all of those who are harmed by the affair.

OP, in the long run, if you aren't willing to invest something back into the relationship with the wife you say you 'love so dearly' because you're hot and horny over someone at the office, what makes you think you're not going to arrive back at precisely this same psychological landscape down the road, either with the relationship that might be started by the affair or with some other relationship?

Unless you're withholding pertinent information, it sounds like overall your relationship with your wife is basically a positive one, religious differences notwithstanding. The fact that she - a TBM - has stopped wearing garments to please you speaks volumes.

I know this is a long post, but to me it's sad to see someone who might have the chance to build something even better from a solid foundation - a caring marriage of multiple years duration - all for a little hormonal excitement. OP, I hope you make the right choice. If you're still hell bent to let your hormones dictate your actions, at least have the decency to divorce your wife before you indulge yourself.

Very well written, frogdogs.

Fantastic Frogdogs! I hope he replies.

I was not in on the original post or thread, but I can write from personal experience:

An extramarital affair can be positive only if it leads to divorce. It was positive for me. My ex-husband had been cheating on me since the first months of our marriage. I honestly did not know, or even suspect. I did know that he lied to me, treated me like dirt, was mean to our children, and was completely uninvolved in our lives. He always said he was playing golf, and he always had his brother and other golf buddies to back him up. They were all Mormons, and they were led by their charismatic Elder's Quorum teacher, who was a motivational speaker, by career. My husband's brother was in the bishopric at the time. There were two other sets of brothers involved, and two dentists. One of the brothers was found drunk in a bar, with a woman. The dentist came on to me, and also my best friend, and we compared notes. My husband's brother told his wife that he was in love with another woman, and left his house (and the bishopric) to live with the woman. He was the first to be excommunicated. All of those temple marriages ended in divorce, except for the leader and his wife. They moved away.

The point is, that the wives of these narcissistic sex addicts (4 of them were, for a fact, but I'm just name-calling the rest of them) let their wives be free! This was years ago, and these women, and me, were rid of husbands who did not love them, who were selfish, unkind, dishonest, dishonorable, bad fathers, bad examples to their children, and just plain creepy. My husband abandoned us soon after his brother abandoned his family. Our children didn't see their father for 4 years, and now they see him ever 2-3 years, for a couple of hours or so. They don't even know their father. It was his loss, as my children are wonderful human beings--interesting, successful, happy, and a lot of fun. Their father lives in his parents' beach house with various women, and 6 dogs, and goes to the doctor, and takes his pulse, and gripes about Obama. I would not trade lives with him, for all his money.

Most of this group's discarded wives remarried, and are still married. Three of us are still single, but have done very well in business and decorating, and I went back to school to get advanced degrees and establish a good career. We are all happier, had we stayed in a marriage that was already over, with a man who didn't love us, with a man who wanted to take a completely anti-husband anti-father path in life.

I know the OP doesn't care about this, but our children turned out much better than they would have with a lying, love-less, cheating, selfish father.

I would recommend to the OP to go ahead and set your poor wife free--but stand up and be a man about it, and tell her why, and pay the alimony and child support your family DESERVES. As soon as she finds another husband, you can stop paying alimony. As soon as your children reach the success a normal child can achieve, they will be able to support themselves. Don't expect anyone to visit you and your women and your dogs.

Absolutely agree, Joy, that there are definite cases when divorce is the best solution particularly when there is a serial chronic cheater, abuser or addict who is doing little but putting his/her spouse and other family through the wringer time after time.

No arguments there. My sister is divorced from a serial cheater, and raging narcissist. That marriage definitely needed to end. She still has major difficulty getting him to honor the terms of their decree as well as do the right thing by their children.

I am so sorry to hear of the hell you went through.

Great reply, FrogDogs. Sadly, I think OP won't reply. My sense is he figured that since the wife he's having an ("emotional") affair on is a TBM, then everyone here would be all for it. Fuck those Mormons, right? WRONG!!!!

Religious differences are no reason to destroy someone else...which is what a cheater does... I don't blame the TBM wife if she tosses him on his ass.

I'm not and haven't yet been married, but thank you for this post.

That's really excellent, Frogdogs.

For Joy: Often we create transitional relationships to help us out of bad relationships.

My variation on the emotional affair, as a therapist friend of mine pointed out: The relationship kept me in a marriage that wasn't working by helping me tolerate it. That was an eye-opening insight. Divorce was painful but in the long run it was less painful than staying in the marriage.

I am the OP. The comments have all been taken on board and I guess, the collective wisdom has prevailed and we have agreed that what we both have to lose from pursuing this course is just not worth it. As has been already pointed out we have already been unfaithful on an emotional level. That cannot be undone but we have agreed to end the relationship before any more damage is done.

I take issue with those who have been highly critical of our actions and painted everything so black and white, like it is just hormones at play and selfish lust that was driving us.

Human relationships are not so simple. To have a friend who you can openly discuss your innermost thoughts with, who does not judge you and who provides comfort when you are at your lowest and who does not approach every aspect of their life from a Mormon perspective has been wonderful. The fact that we are of the opposite sex and found ourselves in a position where we were drawn to each other on a physical and emotional level just happened. We did not go looking for it. It seemed very natural but we are not oblivious to the potential repercussions of acting upon it any further and it has had to come to an end. It hurts! This person has been a tremendous source of strength to me as I have hit many low points over the past year including bereavement, being ripped off by a former colleague and losing the faith which I have held to for over 40 years.

I know it has been the right choice to call time on the relationship but right now I feel at a complete loss. I am scared of ending up like my parents (mother über TBM and father nevermo)who have a pretty loveless relationship, in no small part due to my mother's obsession with the church and constant criticism of my dad. I have to say, had my Dad had an affair, I would have understood.

Fortunately for me, my DW has been far more understanding with my lack of belief than my mother ever was with my father. There are still topics we cannot really discuss openly without causing offence, particularly when it comes to teaching the children. There are going to be difficult times ahead. For example I am very much against pushing early morning seminary on them and will be discouraging all of them from going on a mission as I believe both are extremely damaging in the long run. I do however appreciate how much my DW has done to accommodate my views and it would be a massive slap in the face to turn around to her and say "notwithstanding all you have done, I want to be with someone else".

I love my wife. She is funny, caring, beautiful, sexy, loving and loyal. I understand that we have got to work through the issues around our religious differences of which there are daily reminders. Others have done it without seeking solace in the arms of another. I have had a beautiful friendship with someone who cared about me as a person at a time when I felt totally worthless. It was wrong to progress as far as it did but it happened. I would be lying if I said I regret what has happened because she has got me through some dark times when I thought all was lost and in a paradoxical way has managed to help me in my marriage.

I am not a dishonest person and I hate to cause hurt. This has been totally out of character for me and hopefully we have been able to mitigate the hurt by stopping now before it gets to a point of no return.

I know we have done the right thing calling time. I just feel like sh## at the moment.

Glad you came back, OP.

There has been some harshness on these threads, this subject triggers off some real pain and anger in people.

But there's been some really great advice too. Several posters talked about looking at what was in your relationship with the woman at work and trying to find that in your marriage . Frog dogs post is excellent.

I know you're feeling terrible now but is nothing compared to how you'd feel if you'd gone ahead with an extramarital affair. The ramifications of pain and hurt are enormous. You really don't want to be responsible for that.

For what it's worth to you, I wish you all the best in your future. Your wife sounds a good woman despite the TBM-ness. Good for you for making this choice.

I hope I don't sound patronising, I truly don't mean to. I'm posting from my phone and that makes it hard to express myself S it does unexpected things.

Good luck, EV

I'm glad you are taking onboard the advice. And I'm sorry you "take issue" with what anyone said. Not that I'm sorry for what I said that you took issue with, but that you are self-deceived enough to not see your actions for what they are. It really IS as black and white as we say. You are asking for blessings to do something STUPID! And I have to beg you to stop...and I'm telling you where the bear sh!ts in the wood...whether YOU take issue or not. You NEED to hear that you are being a dumbass.

Having lived through this HELL after having been married for over 18 years to someone I THOUGHT I knew, it was utterly devastating. At the time, and perhaps still, I figured the only thing worse would have been for one of my children to have died. While we did not divorce, I consider that the marriage I had for 18 years died. Two years later, there have been no further incidents, and the work to recover has been extremely difficult, but I'm not sure I'll ever really trust my spouse. And there's rarely a day I don't think about what happend. I could have hardly imagined my spouse was capable of such lies. Would my spouse say it was worth it? I doubt it.

Religious differences...hell, any point of disagreement or contention...is no reason to dump on someone else. You think that your DW wont submerge herself more deeply into Mormonism? She will. I submerged myself very deeply into, I guess, my "anti-Mormonism" (I had, from the start, expressed my specific disagreement with the LDS religion). My spouse was the Mormon, a I the "Gentile" and boy, I got nasty about getting the Mormons off my property and out of my life (spouse ran to the bishop, after years of inactivity, to confess). I told plenty of Mormons, in their own church, what a damned cult I thought they were part of.

You want it to get nasty? Every difference, every thing she feels like you promised her and never delivered on, no matter the significance, will be magnified. In my case, my spouse promised to convert and promised to be faithful. When the faithful promise fell through, then the unkept promise to convert got a whole lot more important. I suspect it will be somewhat similar, overall, for your TBM wife (except that, unlike me, she LOVES the Mormon religion).

Think about that. If you must leave, then be honest, file for divorce and try to settle as amicably as you can. Not that your girlfriend (if I remember, she too was married) will leave her family for YOU...and you will end up alone.

If you don't care about your own marriage, don't wreck someone else's family. Please.

You really are experiencing a loss breaking this off, and I hope it will work out all the way around. Most people don't issues like this to a group for other opinions. Had I done that at various times in my life I may have avoided some mistakes. At the same time your life is your own.

Just for the record, if it makes a difference, I don't think or feel ill of you for what you have been going through.

Be careful what you ask for. :/ I am glad that you took to heart all the advice given. I guess it struck a chord with me because my father had an affair on my mother, and he had 6 children at home! I was a teenager. A little while later we had to watch this man marry this woman. They later divorced 10 years later. Enough said about that. You may feel terrible now but the ramifications if you went through with be far more damaging and would last longer than ending it right now. It would come back to bite you in the ass more than you know.

We do need friends, others besides a spouse with whom we can be close. Many people do, anyway. I am not against that. My concern from what you describe about your marriage is having another love interest allows you to avoid addressing important issues with your wife, since your colleague can hear you and take some pressure off. It serves a purpose in keeping your marriage stable--but it also keeps it the same. I could be wrong. Afterall, I don't know what efforts you've made or how you've been treated when you've made them.

Also, as I said, I had an emotional affair to have an outlet for my feelings and it kept my marriage stable. I had addressed the issues but that only made things worse and the affair allowed some aspects of me to live outside the marriage that couldn't live in it. I hear you about your TBM parents.

That said, I also will say in my relationship with my partner, I have a tendency, which I am working on, to give up on an issue too soon. She and I talked about this the other day. I push a bit on something I want, she pushes back, and after a few exchanges, I pick up ball and go home, emotionally speaking. Then I don't get what I want, don't feel heard, and I feel really upset. I've been doing better on this, lately, and feel better for it. I also see my partner in a more positive light--not as an obstruction, even though we might disagree.

I don't know if this really relates to you and your wife, if you feel you can get some movement on the issues between you but your assertiveness as well as her willingness to negotiate are worth considering.

Close to half of the married male attending physicians with whom I work are carrying on at least one extra-marital affair. I don't see how it is enriching the lives of any one of them. they expend so much energy lying and trying to cover up their lies and cheating that it's tough for them to concentrate on their jobs, much less to give their children half the attention they deserve.

If a marriage sucks to the point that it is intolerable, get out of it even if doing so is costly. It's not fair to anyone involved to carry on an extramarital relationship when at least one party is already in a committed, legal relationship.

The only exception I can possibly see as excusable is when one party is healthy and virile, and the other is suffering from something such as severe dementia that may continue for God knows how long before the spouse passes. In such cases, the person should do everything he or he can for the ailing spouse and should still visit and pay attention even if the spouse doesn't know his or her partner from Colonel Sanders, but I could never blame the healthy spouse for having human needs and desires.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/19/2013 03:57AM by scmd.

OP, perhaps its a good time for you all to do some marriage counseling?

Are you ending it or calling time? Those are two different things.

In my part of the world calling time means discontinuing, ceasing or ending. All the same thing.

Reality: In general most men do not remain faithful. It's been that way throughout history. In general, women expect married men to remain faithful. Reality and expectations do not meet up for about 70% of couples, maybe more.

Given that we need to ask ourselves if remaining celibate outside of marriages is the right thing for males of the homo-sapiens species. It appears, biologically, that it is not the right thing.

If we accept that (many won't), then we have to ask..."is there another set of expectations, another set of arrangements, etc., that may be better, more healthy, more realistic?"

I believe that there is. Right now, in this decade of this century in the western world, men should try to remain faithful. The current expectations and the current laws about divorce, custody, financial support, do not favor divorce as an option that produces healthier outcomes in terms of happiness and fulfillment. I think in the coming centuries a couple of things are going to happen...

First, it will not be necessary to get married to produce offspring. It won't even be necessary to have someone available of the opposite sex to have offspring. We'll be genetically selecting our children and they will probably be raised in womb tanks until gestation is complete. Some people may prefer cloning themselves which could result in taking custody of a "child clone" when the physical body is older, maybe the physical age of 5 or 6 say.

Under these conditions, marriage is not likely to survive as we know it today. People will still seek out friendships, and in some cases long term relationships with the opposite sex. But the EXPECTATION will be that they are temporary, for the vast majority of people. Close, lifetime contact with a single human is a very difficult thing to do and remain happy and fulfilled. Humans are prone to boredom and desire change.

Some people want to be married for a lifetime and be celibate. I will celebrate my 30th wedding aniversary this August. I have always been faithful. But I am bored, and so is my wife. We struggle, but financial constraints are real and we will stay married. I mean we love each other in other ways beyond "sex".

With all due respect, I completely disagree with this- With the idea of the future family, with the 70% of men cheating, with the idea that biologically humans SHOULDN'T remain faithful -- just because we have basic instincts and attractions elsewhere doesn't mean that we SHOULD act on them. Oftentimes, my basic instinct is to slug my MIL right in the face. I don't, however, believe that it is what I should do.

Your picture paints men as little more than the sum of their parts: hormones attached to a body. Give men a little more credit. Many of them are happy to remain faithful to their wives and vice-versa.

It sort of reminds me of this: (which has no actual basis, except to say that its POSSIBLE that men really DO need relatoinships just as much as women. Or that this is just a silly internet meme) http://coolmemes.net/after-breakup-boys-vs-girls/

Okay so, you say that:

"With all due respect, I completely disagree with this- With the idea of the future family, with the 70% of men cheating, with the idea that biologically humans SHOULDN'T remain faithful -- just because we have basic instincts and attractions elsewhere doesn't mean that we SHOULD act on them. Oftentimes, my basic instinct is to slug my MIL right in the face. I don't, however, believe that it is what I should do."


Have you read Mosiah 3:19: "For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father."


Do you agree with that?


The dude has testicles and emotions and disappointments, and he may be half monkey, yet for thirty years he has still been faithful. Give props, major props, and also stop fantasizing about the opposite sex while pleasuring yourself.


(Edit: or same sex pleasuring, or self love pleasuring, or just pythagorean theory pleasuring.)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/10/2013 01:52AM by lastofthewine.

Ive been cuckoled. It was hell. My wife and I made it work. The book His Needs Her Needs was priceless.

I didn't know what that meant until I watched a recent movie, it had Steve Carrol in it. Cuckoled? Yea, I think I figured it out from context...

As someone who've been 'the mistress' there are a few issues. Sure there is an upside to cheating, it's called hormones and doesn't need further elaboration. But there's this thing called guilt and loyalty and integrity. Also as the adulterer in this office fling the OP doesn't come off as a trustworthy person. If you cheat on your wife what is to say that you will not cheat on your mistress aswell?

The guy that seduced me also came up with far-fetched justifications that didn't convince me at all or eased my guilt. Cheating on your spouse and integrity are simply mutually exclusive. In the long run people will get hurt, don't kid yourself.

Well said brefots!

Since you don't know me I'll describe what I'm like. I'm really tall, attractive, intellectual, and nerdy -- but in a practical, not irrational way. Needless to say I don't date much -- if at all. Anyway, I worked with a manager once (who unbeknownst to me) was and had been for some time sexually attracted to me. He even went so far as to as to drop his pants and expose himself right in front of my desk in my office. I was thrilled that a good looking intelligent man was interested me. I went to lunch with him a few times and he visited my home -- but that is as far as I allowed it to go. He kept asking me for sex and I didn't want to get involved with a married man as it couldn't lead anywhere and the man usually gets away with it and the girl usually gets hurt. Emotionally it was a bittersweet experience for me. Most men run away when they get near me and here was this attractive, charming, but roguish rake of a man charging the doors to come see me.

After this experience I knew why his wife called him on the phone every fifteen or twenty minutes.

Can I ask a personal question?

That same thing happened to me once, a potential romantic interest dropped his pants while I was sitting on a sofa, and when I turned around, there was his junk.

It was the biggest turn off ever. I swear I felt my interest literally wilt instantly.

When this man saw my reaction, he said, "I just wanted you to see what you would be getting."

Which made it worse.

Please tell me your reaction because I have always wondered how other women might have reacted.


Anagrammy

I don't remember exactly what happened but I remember him coming into my office and undoing his pants. I gave out a nervous laugh. He was my immediate superior and he wanted to do it right then and there on top of my desk. I think I said something like "Right, I've seen these before -- I'm flattered by the attention but I don't think this would be a good idea right now" or something like that. I had never had anything like that ever happen to me before and I was not pleased or aroused but disgusted like you.

He was persistent though so although I did sort of date him I didn't want it to go all the way because I didn't want some crazy woman showing up in front of my door with a shotgun at two o'clock in the morning or something. My coworkers and head of my group knew that there was something going on but didn't say anything. The company had to make layoffs after the new year break and I lost my job and I've always wondered if it had anything to do with it.

I had a 2 1/2 year extra-marital affair. The only thing I can say is that if you don't want to get caught, you won't. I set up the situation so that his "missing time" was always covered and, more importantly, we did NOT want to get caught!

It's evil, it's wrong, etc., etc., etc. If he did it with me he'd do it TO me. I know all that. But my husband was not only molesting children, but dating his old girlfriend. ("SHE says I'm manly and that she's so proud of what I've become, etc.") Not an excuse, but it felt good to feel loved by someone, and it wasn't happening at home. And I DID feel loved. Just brain chemicals, but I'll take my highs where I get 'em.LOL

We broke up because we actually cared about each other and we recognized that this was not healthy. It was, oddly, one of the healthiest relationships I've ever had. But that was ME. HE, on the other hand, started another affair almost immediately after our breakup. He divorced his wife three months after our breakup. So I suppose this was a more normal experience for him than for me. If you had ever told me that I would cheat, I'd have not believed it.

Last I heard he was living on the streets, looking like a meth addict. Which makes me sad.

So...positive? Not really. But not horrible and I learned a LOT during that time.

If they'll do it with you, they'll do it to you.