Just wanted to weigh in while I can. A few things:

1) Taking a stand against Patriarchy =/= hating men. Just as speaking out against endemic racism/homophobia is not the same as hating white/straight people. Both women and men are guilty of enforcing the trappings of patriarchy. There are many reasons for this, but there is one I will address. In a patriarchy, the social value of women is determined by a narrow set of parameters (this is true of men as well, but the parameters are a different set). If these parameters happen to play to your strengths and situation, there will be a strong incentive to maintain the status quo.

**WE GET TO TALK ABOUT THIS!! It isn't "whining". One in six women will be a victim of sexual assault in her lifetime ONE IN SIX! This is in addition to being paid the same with a bachelors degree as men are paid with a diploma and hitting the "glass ceiling". Just because a woman may have been horrible to you once does not me that we should sit down and shut up.

2) Feminism is good for men too (at least "non-conventional" men). As stated above, gender roles exist, those who conform to them are socially rewarded and those who are not are socially punished. Breaking down gender roles and opening up options women in turn should open up options for men. ex: male nurses and flight attendants used to face significant social punishment. This has changed quite a bit. In the future, hopefully, some men will be able to choose to be stay at home Dads without fear of social punishment as well.

3) Even if everything from Evolutionary Psychology were true, IT DOES NOT MATTER. in as far as it is a science and not a pseudoscience (not too far, IMHO) it is DESCRIPTIVE, not PROSCRIPTIVE. Saying that it is fine for men to mistreat women because they are "wired that way" is as silly as saying that all black people should move back to Africa because their skin is better adapted to large amounts of sunlight. It is inappropriate to use past evolutionary pressures that may or may not have existed as a means of controlling another's behavior to your liking. IE: I don't care that you look like a hunter and that your physique was selected for. I do not care what your IQ is, *I* get to decide if I am attracted to you or not.

YES THANK YOU FOR THIS SO MUCH.

Disagreeing with some men, hating patriarchy, and hating discrimination DO NOT EQUAL HATING MEN. I hate discrimination against people of color too, but that doesn't mean I hate myself because I'm white.

+ a million to #2 and #3 as well

+1 both of you.

Feminism has been hijacked by some interesting sorts. I am for equal rights, which includes women's rights and many others' rights.

I am for equal rights as well. I just feel that we need to understand what is going on before we can ever get there.

To just blame men is to ignore a huge part of the problem, the women that do not want equal rights.

Until we know and address that, it will be very difficult to get to the solution.

No, just harping on misandry coming from men is not going to solve the issue.

To try to harp on men because of "privilege" is to ignore that the "privilege" is often bestowed by women.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/20/2013 06:54PM by MJ.

Blaming men while ignoring the role of women in perpetuating the system is misandry.

but please understand, it is also fair to address behavior perpetuated chiefly by men without it being assumed that we are implicating all men or that we are ignoring the role of women. we do not have to bring up, in every single conversation about endemic sexism that "oh yeah, and some women are at fault too". You are also not obligated to bring up the closeted gay people (like Ted Haggard) who fight against the cause every time you talk about gay issues.

I have no problem with talking about women hatred coming from SOME men, it does. But to try to lay the blame for women not having equal rights on that nail alone is misandry plain and simple.

My point has been that women have the political power, being a true majority voting block, to rectify all political inequalities in regard to women's rights. The fact that women, as a majority voting block, have not been able to get full political rights and funding for woman's issues lays some of the blame on women themselves. For that I have been chastised.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/20/2013 07:17PM by MJ.

No woman has ever made rape threats directed at me.

The start of the conversation was about threatening rpe. That was the context. That's why it was such a hot button issue.

People whine too much about rape? Or did you miss the beginning of the conversation?

Please try not to use emotional thought stoppers, they don't do the discussion any good.

I think we have a rape culture. Am I whining? Am I just making stuff up?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/20/2013 07:47PM by crom.

I would say every woman that used the "I'm so helpless I need the protection of a big strong man" has helped build the rape culture.

Wow. Just wow.

No, I think every single woman who has posted has also said that some of the blame is on women, just as some of the blame is on gay people or people of color for their perpetuation of their respective problems in society.

LOL @ chastised.

when they get cornered into it by men that don't buy into the men are all at fault.

Women have the political clout to fix the political inequalities with women all on their own, without any help from men and have failed to do so. In deed, if women voted in a block, men would not be able to stop women.

I have to say, If I have full ability to fix something and do not, I don't go blaming other people.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/20/2013 07:28PM by MJ.

how the heck are we supposed to unanimously decide to vote in a bloc without discussing these issues? Is that really practical? Is it fair to blame feminists for a broken system because they are not able to unilaterally control the vote of every woman?

Never the less, there are more women voters than men. There is a large percentage of women that oppose equal rights for women or it would have passed a long time ago.

There are a LOT of men that support women's rights. So, you have a lot of men in favor, a lot of women in favor, a political advantage to women, and it still can not get passed? Sorry there are a lot of women opposed to equal rights for that sort of situation to exist.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/20/2013 07:42PM by MJ.

...and how is that the fault of women who do?

in the same way I say the situation is not just the fault of misogynous men. It is also the fault of women that buy into the ideas of the misogynous men.

+1

that they may not realize are misogynistic? How do we discuss these things?

I'm sure in your life you have come across many well meaning straight people who would not consider themselves to be homophobic, but who nonetheless express attitudes that are hurtful and offensive. Do you have the right to tell them so?

In a recent Canadian survey, nearly half of respondents indicated that they did not feel that sex with a passed out person who is unable to consent was rape. I am of the opinion that most of these respondents were probably generally decent humans and didn't exactly condone that behavior, but, they were still in dire need of an education. This is where the "Don't be that Guy" campaign came from and it has been quite successful.

Most people who are not part of an oppressed minority group may at times need to have certain things explained to them. The human capacity of empathy is limited and it sometimes needs a bit of help. Anagrammy had a good post about her experience with this a while back (about moving to a black neighborhood).

That they do not realize are misandry?

And if you have been around here long enough that I will stand up to straight, well meaning people that say anti gay stuff. I even stand up to gays that say anti gay stuff.

Seriously, your point has nothing about what I am talking about, it is a strawman, I am not saying anything about a person being bad or good.

Excellent post.

When I posted a quick example of not cool behavior I was hoping for a discussion of where should we as a society draw lines.

I.E. Does anyone have a right to say or ask whatever they want of anyone, anywhere, anytime?

Is threat of rape EVER okay? Kinda stunned where it went.

Yeah. I was surprised too. I was also surprised that some people actually don't think that discrimination against women exists AT ALL anymore and that there could be so much anger caused just by claiming that it does. It kind of shocked me tbh.

Why would anyone say there is no racism or sexism? What comfort do they take from calling people "race hustlers" or "man haters" and avoiding the topic? Do rational people believe it's imaginary? Something invented by agitators?

hahaha +1

Talking about this stuff is not whining. Constantly blaming men while excluding women, Denying verifiable things that one has said, trying to claim the conversation is about "privilege" at one time but "misogyny" (two unrelated issues) another, using fallacy after fallacy IS whining.

I can call whining, whining without diminishing the state of women.

Privilege and Misogyny are two halves of the same coin. That is to say, endemic male privilege over women equates to a misogynistic system. This is not to say that any particular man is a misogynist because he has privilege over women (after all, he probably did not ask for it).

Privilege can be bestowed without hate. Many women bestow white males with the white male privilege, are you saying those women are women haters? I wouldn't.

During the time that I had to stand when a woman entered the room, opened the door for them, pulled their seat out for them, walked on the outside of the sidewalk, etc, I was extending those privileges out of some sort of hate? NONSENSE.

"Privileges" are not in any way the same thing as "endemic male privilege."

"Talking about this stuff is not whining."

Exactly!

Whining about it still is whining.